Interested by Sky Regional Airlines, please consider

[Gino Under]

prop2jet

Well said.
It's nice to read a 'relevant' post. It's also nice to read something from someone who gets it.

Excellent post.

Gino

[CANAM]

I wondered when this day was going to come to fruition up here in Canada. Air Canada, much like her American counterparts, is in search of various regional airlines to serve her. In the US, some majors have as many as 10 different regionals flying under their livery at any given time. The contracts are short, thus ensuring a never ending bidding war to survive. While I'm no expert in Canadian aviation, but I'm guessing when Jazz's CPA expires, look for Air Canada to start offering contracts to everybody who wants in. This would hinge largely upon who holds the leases/ownership papers to Jazz's aircraft. If it's Air Canada, look out. I'm also guessing that Jazz managment knows this and is starting to diversify their business. Just my $0.02.

[unregistered]

Back to the original plea of this thread, to the originator I ask: If you were in the position of a prospective applicant (obviously not employed by Jazz), Would you apply for the position and if offered a position would you go? Better yet, say you had some Dash experience in a company going nowhere in the boonies and offered a left seat - would you go?

My advice to any prosepective individual thinking of Sky Regional, treat it like any other job search, weigh the pros and cons as it applies to your situation and if you think it is of benefit then by all means go for it.

To everyone else: this is business and the last time I checked our economy is driven by CAPITALISM. Competition is the name of the game and it is supposed to ensure that everyone get's their best bang for the little that they pay. Lots of finger pointing going around as to who is contributing to the race to the bottom. That race started when the industry was deregulated in the the 80's and competition was encouraged. From my perspective we are all in one way part contributors to the race down because of our own greed to move on to something bigger. We justify our choices as the sacrifice one has to make to climb the ladder. We all did it and will continue to do it. Don't believe me? then ask yourself this one question. For every step taken "forward" in your career, did you take a pay cut to advance?

As a pilot at Jazz I am not the least bit surprised that there is going to be another 2Tier operator and I am inclined to think that Management at Jazz are not surprised either - if they claim to be caught off guard then they are even more incompetent than I believe them to be.

Well said.

[Localizer]

I wondered when this day was going to come to fruition up here in Canada. Air Canada, much like her American counterparts, is in search of various regional airlines to serve her. In the US, some majors have as many as 10 different regionals flying under their livery at any given time. The contracts are short, thus ensuring a never ending bidding war to survive. While I'm no expert in Canadian aviation, but I'm guessing when Jazz's CPA expires, look for Air Canada to start offering contracts to everybody who wants in. This would hinge largely upon who holds the leases/ownership papers to Jazz's aircraft. If it's Air Canada, look out. I'm also guessing that Jazz managment knows this and is starting to diversify their business. Just my $0.02.

CANAM .. its interesting you raise this point. This use to be the way in the US .. If you turn your attention south you'll notice all the regional carriers are now merging. This system doesn't work .. they've realized it .. the only way to survive is to be one. This scenario already existed in Canada .. Air BC, Air Nova, Air Ontario, and CRA all merged into Jazz. We were ahead of the curve so to speak .. and now we're going backwards.

Loc

[Brick Head]

Loc,

It is not a curve it is a circle.

A cycle they have been going through for decades now. First they created separate groups and made them compete for work. Over time the cost structures hit rock bottom. At that point economy of scale become the only way to cut costs further. So they merge and got bigger. Over time larger employee groups demanded benefit increases and had the leverage to get them. Eventually executives saw breaking up the companies and creating a tendering process as a way to cut cost once again. So around and around we go. Today various US regional airlines are at different places in the cycle. CO/UAL merging. AMR trying to divest Eagle.

ALPA is presently attempting to break the cycle

[mattedfred]

and ACPA is facilitating it

[KAG]

I was under the impression that the YYZ AC pilots were dead set against this?

[F-16]

Mattfred, you should really think about your post.

ACPA hasn't facilitated anything yet - any change to the CA requires a membership vote.

If you really want to down the road of going backwards in time or a race to the bottom, perhaps it should be considered...

Who wanted to get their hands on all the Air Canada narrowbody flying?
Who wanted to fly the Embraer's for 100K?
Who has been one of the main obstacles to the foundation of the College of Pilots?

Jazz.

Please explain how it's not acceptable for another carrier to fly Q400's, but it's okay for Jazz to use the richness of the CPA to fund it's expansion into other areas, and end up as a competitor to Air Canada.

What would you have ACPA do when Thomas Cook asks Jazz to get larger aircraft and fly in competition to Air Canada over the Atlantic?

It's a two way street, and Jazz has to decide what is more important to them - a stable CPA that still guarantees margins that are extremely rare in this industry, or a shot at flying larger aircraft in a sector of the industry with razor thin margins and few guarantees.

Jazz will inevitably have to choose.

Personally, I think it would be great to keep Jazz as the sole Tier II CPA provider. I will take that one step further and say that it would be even better if there could've been an agreement a few years ago for a "global solution" and if we could all be one big happy family.

But in the end, it takes two to tango and both ACPA and ALPA are to blame for their own missteps.

Perhaps there is still time to change course on both sides, but maybe that's just a pipe dream.

[mattedfred]

surely you can see the irony in complaining about a whipsaw while facilitating the creation of a second whipsaw?

ALPA and ACPA pilots are being played like a fiddle by CR et al

sadly the entire industry will suffer

[Brick Head]

and ACPA is facilitating it

ALPA is trying to break the cycle through repatriation. Something tells me you would be pissed with that idea as well?

Maybe it would help people to take a reality check here. Both jazz and AC are in survival mode. None soon enough either. This should have started right after CCAA but didn't. Both companies are in jeopardy over cost structure. AC needs to get costs down or they will fail. Jazz needs to find work, that their cost structure can be competitive doing, or they will fail.

End of story.

Jazz has no choice in the direction they are taking and neither does AC.

The only question for us is how do we deal with it? If at all.

[teacher]

As always we as pilots and employees have made the mistaken impression that we set company policy and make coporate decisions. ACPA cannot hold the Jazz pilots responsible for the CPA which was designed to line the pockets of MAINLINE executives and investors OR making a play for the EMBs during CCAA as that was Jazz's managements idea to line their pockets.

[mattedfred]

i've posted several questions from another thread that continue to be unanswered by anyone:

Do you think that there will be more or less downward pressure on the EMJ FO wage at AC if ACPA allows a second Tier 2 airline?

How can we go from Global Solutions talks to facilitating the creation of a second Tier 2 airline in such a short time?

Does anyone else know of an income trust that pays the same or higher distributions as JAZ.UN?

Does anyone know the annual cost of the ALPA CBA at JALP?

Does anyone know what percentage of total cost the JALP CPA is to AC?

Perhaps there is a better way for ACPA to influence the cost of the JALP CPA rather than take CR's bait by allowing a second Tier 2 CPA?

Do you think it would be more or less difficult to take back all of the regional flying as CO/UAL have hinted at if ACPA agreed to amend their current scope language to allow another Tier 2 CPA carrier?

[Localizer]

Do you think it would be more or less difficult to take back all of the regional flying as CO/UAL have hinted at if ACPA agreed to amend their current scope language to allow another Tier 2 CPA carrier?

Maybe creating another tier 2 is there method of taking back the regional flying. Too bad they'll have to kill the "industry standard" Jazz created to do it .. thus killing the present wages, benefits, and working conditions.

They think the CPA is too expensive .. so instead of putting the pressure on Jazz management, they'd prefer to put it on the pilots .. that have no say in the matter.

Maybe they should get RM on the phone and ask why he did, what he did, in terms of the Jazz CPA. Oh, you can't .. because he's laughing all the way too the bank .. just like CR will be doing.

[ChallengerDan]

Does anyone else know of an income trust that pays the same or higher distributions as JAZ.UN?




From my discount broker screening page....

Rank

Symbol

Name

Dividend Yield

Action
Rank Symbol Name Dividend Yield Action
1

HAR

Harmony Asset Ltd

20%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
2

MGIC

Magic Software Enterprises Ltd

20%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
3

SFI.PR.F

iStar Financial Inc

19%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
4

SFI.PR.G

iStar Financial Inc

19%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
5

SFI.PR.E

iStar Financial Inc

19%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
6

SFI.PR.D

iStar Financial Inc

19%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
7

IVR

Invesco Mortgage Capital Inc

19%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
8

FCAR

First Carolina Investors Inc

19%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
9

SFI.PR.I

iStar Financial Inc

19%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
10

ANH

Anworth Mortgage Asset Corp

19%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
11

BLS

Boliden AB

18%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
12

FP.UN

FP Newspapers Income Fund

18%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
13

STR.E

Financial Services Income STREAMS Corp

18%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
14

FTN

Financial 15 Split Corp

18%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
15

CYS

Cypress Sharpridge Investments Inc

17%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
16

DGI.UN

Data Group Income Fund

17%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
17

CIM

Chimera Investment Corp

17%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
18

GDI.UN

General Donlee Income Fund

16%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
19

BFSB

Brooklyn Federal Bancorp Inc

17%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
20

CGQ.E

Capital Gains Income STREAMS Corp

16%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
21

FFN

Financial 15 Split Corp II

16%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
22

HTS

Hatteras Financial Corp

16%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
23

CRT.UN

Citadel SMaRT Fund

16%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
24

RSO

Resource Capital Corp

16%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
25

NLY

Annaly Capital Management Inc

15%

[View Why] [Event Lookup]
















Jazz is at 12.9% at the present price. It is the 51st highest yielding divendend paying canadiaan company.
Just tell me if you actually need the whole list.

[teacher]

How about any airline that actually pays a dividend!?!? I believe there's 1 in the states, that's it. There's a reason for that. Jazz was set up to make RM and his buddies a lot of money.

[yycflyguy]

How about any airline that actually pays a dividend!?!? I believe there's 1 in the states, that's it. There's a reason for that. Jazz was set up to make RM and his buddies a lot of money.

That is it in a nutshell.

[Machiavelli]

Jazz doesn't pay a dividend, they pay a distribution as they are a trust company. Very different when the taxman cometh. Instead of complaining about it, why not partake?

This past week, Jazz unitholders voted to convert to a corporation. When that happens on January 1st, then they'll pay a dividend. If you missed it, "Chorus" will be the new name. Mr. Randall has said the $0.60/year payout will continue and I suspect it's a factor in Jaz.un's run up of late.

[Dark Helmet]

[quote="F-16"]
Who has been one of the main obstacles to the foundation of the College of Pilots?

Jazz.

[quote]

Care to elaborate on that ?

[Sage]

At the last ACPA meeting it was revealed that Jazz to the day has not contributed to the college of pilots. Guess they are not interested.

[countryhick]

Jazz the corporation, not likely. ALPA, not sure, but I suspect yes.

The Board and Executive of the College are well represented with members from the following companies and industry areas: WestJet, Skyservice, Georgian, Transport Canada/Nav Canada, Sunwing, Air Canada, Air Canada Jazz, Bearskin Airlines, Calm Air, First Air, CanJet, Kelowna Flightcraft, Central Mountain Air, Air Transat, Wasaya, float plane pilot(s), General Aviation pilot(s), and Corporate pilot(s).

Has Air Canada contributed?

[Sage]

I think it was monetary they were talking about that Jazz (or ALPA) has not contributed.

[LisaS]

You were once at Jazz Sage, why the hate on now?

[Sage]

You were once at Jazz Sage, why the hate on now?

LisaS, no hate for Jazz. Just answering the question. I know it may read so at times but I have no hate for Jazz. Have a lot of friends still there, good memories, and I would recommend it to anybody. Jazz has a good place in the AC system and voted in the last poll to keep that. Hate on for some of the Jazz MEC definitely though. As long as BS and his Six Zerio cronies are there. Before you jump on me, I do not lump the MEC and the union membership in the same boat. I try to make it a point for you guys not believe everything that comes out of the MEC, and that's any MEC. Jazz MEC has in the past tried to screw anything ACPA associated (narrow body flying, EMJ, etc.) and that included Jazz pilots going over to AC, and flat out lied about it. Yes Im included and that has left a bad taste in alot of the former Jazz guys at AC. I'm not alone. You can add College of Pilots to the list now. They say they are proponents of the College but haven't contributed anything to it. Jazz guys coming over in this hiring will have the benefit of not having LOU18 holding you back and it being used as a bargaining tool by ALPA MEC.

Peace.

[Localizer]

I don't seem to understand what your point is Sage? .. You keep saying Jazz but not ALPA? Are you saying Jazz the company hasn't put money toward the C of P? Or ALPA specifically?

I get your point about LOU18 .. but atleast with that LOU some seniority for pay could atleast follow you ..

I do find it funny that you believe the Jazz MEC to be a bunch of liars but that everything you hear from ACPA is gospel. Personally .. I think they're both guilty at times ..

[Sage]

I don't seem to understand what your point is Sage? .. You keep saying Jazz but not ALPA? Are you saying Jazz the company hasn't put money toward the C of P? Or ALPA specifically?

I get your point about LOU18 .. but atleast with that LOU some seniority for pay could atleast follow you ..

I do find it funny that you believe the Jazz MEC to be a bunch of liars but that everything you hear from ACPA is gospel. Personally .. I think they're both guilty at times ..

It was Jazz ALPA that hasn't contributed monetarily to the College. Why does it matter? I mentioned "Jazz(or ALPA)" as insert your own term here. This is a profession thing..why would Jazz the company have anything to do with this? Use a little common sense here.

Pay with LOU18 is nice Loc but it is awful having a job presented to your face and told you cannot have it until such and such a time has passed. Pay upgrade for those who stayed 2 years and under at Jazz is not as good as you might think however. You don't carry over a full 2 years.

I never mentioned anything about ACPA as gospel. I think I mentioned any MEC. Don't get the impression I was too pleased with the recent goings on at ACPA because I, like many are pretty pissed off.