Negotiations

[truedude]

So you want to work less for more pay?

Are you a politician?

Get back to work and away from the trucker protests.

I want to be paid what I am worth. Which is a lot more than what I am currently making. We are severely underpaid in this country, and it is time to remedy that! Or they can keep losing pilots and keep shrinking the operation. The choice is theirs. But I'm prepared to see this through, and I can out wait them.

[belgianmoon]

Good Day,

Any updates on negotiations? Last I followed official meeting was on October 14?

Thank you

[truedude]

Good Day,

Any updates on negotiations? Last I followed official meeting was on October 14?

Thank you

They met again recently but no word yet. But it seems someone believes this entire situation is only temporary, an it will resolve itself in time. They just can't beleive that they might have to pay pilots more, and would rather keep shrinking.

Summer should be fun!

[canadian_aviator_4]

After this summer no idea how jazz will make it to and through summer 2024.

[swervin]

Unofficially from a good source. Company says they have no money to pay us. Air Canada doesn't want to give Chorus more money. Apparently MEC memo coming out this week.

[rudder]

Unofficially from a good source. Company says they have no money to pay us. Air Canada doesn't want to give Chorus more money. Apparently MEC memo coming out this week.

Hence corporate Plan B - allow Jazz to continue to shrink and backfill using mainline capacity and UAL/UA Express capacity.

Jazz pilots should be dusting off their resumes if not already done so. Porter should just set up an interview kiosk in Terminal 1.

[truedude]

Unofficially from a good source. Company says they have no money to pay us. Air Canada doesn't want to give Chorus more money. Apparently MEC memo coming out this week.

Heard something similar. Moral should be great. So fun working for a company that would rather shrink than pay properly. That is fine, they can shrink themselves into oblivion. I predict record book-offs this summer and spring, and probably within days of that memo coming out.

If you aren't on property, you should be looking everywhere else but here. If you are on property, you should be looking at going anywhere else.

These people are just incredible. Their stupidity is just shocking to witness firsthand. I am happy for them to choke on the current contract until they are prepared to pay 30% tomorrow, or it puts them out of business. Either option is fine by me.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Unofficially from a good source. Company says they have no money to pay us. Air Canada doesn't want to give Chorus more money. Apparently MEC memo coming out this week.

If this is the case, it sounds like neither company is interested in the long term future of jazz. Not sure what possibilities there are for jazz but nothing that is very promising.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Unofficially from a good source. Company says they have no money to pay us. Air Canada doesn't want to give Chorus more money. Apparently MEC memo coming out this week.

Heard something similar. Moral should be great. So fun working for a company that would rather shrink than pay properly. That is fine, they can shrink themselves into oblivion. I predict record book-offs this summer and spring, and probably within days of that memo coming out.

If you aren't on property, you should be looking everywhere else but here. If you are on property, you should be looking at going anywhere else.

These people are just incredible. Their stupidity is just shocking to witness firsthand. I am happy for them to choke on the current contract until they are prepared to pay 30% tomorrow, or it puts them out of business. Either option is fine by me.

I expect many other carriers HR departments will be sifting through resumes once that memo comes in, if it does say in fact what is being rumored.

[Inverted2]

Maybe this is all intentional? Does management realize the revolving door with all the training costs more than giving a proper raise? Are they that blind?

[rudder]

Maybe this is all intentional? Does management realize the revolving door with all the training costs more than giving a proper raise? Are they that blind?

Not so much a revolving door as an exit sign. Inability to attract qualified candidates with uncompetitive pay scales will not keep up with attrition, which will now increase due to …… uncompetitive pay scales.

A refusal to accept that the industry has changed will only result in higher turnover rates. And competition for pilot labour has not eased.

Jazz could possibly be down to 90 airframes by YE2023, and 80 by YE2024. CPA guarantees are meaningless if pilot staffing prevents proper hull utilization rates required to meet monthly/annual block hour obligations.

Something has to give here. And apparently it isn’t recalibrated pilot pay. So it will probably be a CPA recalibration.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Maybe this is all intentional? Does management realize the revolving door with all the training costs more than giving a proper raise? Are they that blind?

Not so much a revolving door as an exit sign. Inability to attract qualified candidates with uncompetitive pay scales will not keep up with attrition, which will now increase due to …… uncompetitive pay scales.

A refusal to accept that the industry has changed will only result in higher turnover rates. And competition for pilot labour has not eased.

Jazz could possibly be down to 90 airframes by YE2023, and 80 by YE2024. CPA guarantees are meaningless if pilot staffing prevents proper hull utilization rates required to meet monthly/annual block hour obligations.

Something has to give here. And apparently it isn’t recalibrated pilot pay. So it will probably be a CPA recalibration.

Nothing is guaranteed at jazz. Just look at their respect for the ‘guaranteed’ %60 flow. How can you trust them to follow anything else in their contract.

[Malfunction]

Maybe this is all intentional? Does management realize the revolving door with all the training costs more than giving a proper raise? Are they that blind?

Not so much a revolving door as an exit sign. Inability to attract qualified candidates with uncompetitive pay scales will not keep up with attrition, which will now increase due to …… uncompetitive pay scales.

A refusal to accept that the industry has changed will only result in higher turnover rates. And competition for pilot labour has not eased.

Jazz could possibly be down to 90 airframes by YE2023, and 80 by YE2024. CPA guarantees are meaningless if pilot staffing prevents proper hull utilization rates required to meet monthly/annual block hour obligations.

Something has to give here. And apparently it isn’t recalibrated pilot pay. So it will probably be a CPA recalibration.

Nothing is guaranteed at jazz. Just look at their respect for the ‘guaranteed’ %60 flow. How can you trust them to follow anything else in their contract.
This

[truedude]

Maybe this is all intentional? Does management realize the revolving door with all the training costs more than giving a proper raise? Are they that blind?

Not so much a revolving door as an exit sign. Inability to attract qualified candidates with uncompetitive pay scales will not keep up with attrition, which will now increase due to …… uncompetitive pay scales.

A refusal to accept that the industry has changed will only result in higher turnover rates. And competition for pilot labour has not eased.

Jazz could possibly be down to 90 airframes by YE2023, and 80 by YE2024. CPA guarantees are meaningless if pilot staffing prevents proper hull utilization rates required to meet monthly/annual block hour obligations.

Something has to give here. And apparently it isn’t recalibrated pilot pay. So it will probably be a CPA recalibration.

They can shrink us to nothing, because at this rate that is where we will be soon. I suspect the only reason people are coming here at all at the moment is because they think no company can possibly be this stupid and surly raises are on the horizon. Once this memo comes out, it should dispell any belief we will see a raise anytime soon.

If something doesn't change soon, I would say Jazz's days are numbered. We will be lucky to see the end of the decade.

[Malfunction]

Is jazz the lowest payed 705 operator in canada now?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Is jazz the lowest payed 705 operator in canada now?

I guess we will find out within a week. But I honestly can’t think of any that fit the bill.

Especially for Jet aircraft.

[cdnavater]

Is jazz the lowest payed 705 operator in canada now?

I guess we will find out within a week. But I honestly can’t think of any that fit the bill.

Especially for Jet aircraft.

What do jets have to with it, you know flying a cucumber is the same job as flying an RJ or Ejet!
This is where you have strayed, you think somehow because you’re flying a jet you’re a better pilot, plenty of 20,000 hour plus pilots flying a Q who could probably fly circles around you. You let Porter make you believe you are worth more because you are an all mighty E2 pilot, fact is you are only paid more because you have more seats and they have no choice, they couldn’t fill the spots without it!

[cdnavater]

Maybe this is all intentional? Does management realize the revolving door with all the training costs more than giving a proper raise? Are they that blind?

Not so much a revolving door as an exit sign. Inability to attract qualified candidates with uncompetitive pay scales will not keep up with attrition, which will now increase due to …… uncompetitive pay scales.

A refusal to accept that the industry has changed will only result in higher turnover rates. And competition for pilot labour has not eased.

Jazz could possibly be down to 90 airframes by YE2023, and 80 by YE2024. CPA guarantees are meaningless if pilot staffing prevents proper hull utilization rates required to meet monthly/annual block hour obligations.

Something has to give here. And apparently it isn’t recalibrated pilot pay. So it will probably be a CPA recalibration.

They can shrink us to nothing, because at this rate that is where we will be soon. I suspect the only reason people are coming here at all at the moment is because they think no company can possibly be this stupid and surly raises are on the horizon. Once this memo comes out, it should dispell any belief we will see a raise anytime soon.

If something doesn't change soon, I would say Jazz's days are numbered. We will be lucky to see the end of the decade.

To be clear, I have no idea how this will play out but I believe we will be 90-100 this year and possibly the 80 fin a year earlier, like rudder as said.
You’re are looking at it as though the pilots who want to go to AC could shut this mother down, those pilots are about half or slightly less than half of the current roster. I haven’t looked but I know that most pilots 7-800 and up to 1 are not leaving except for retirement, the rest are hoping to go so that will be a revolving door. However a lot of the bottom 500 are not eligible for flow right now so will be building time here in hope of a flow, if that becomes obviously not working, some will leave.
How many recent hire actually have an ATPL who can flow or go.
So, the question is could Jazz staff 90-100 airframes with the top 700 as mostly Captains and keep the right seat warm with a revolving door, my analysis says yes.
Some hires will stick around either due to PFO from AC or the other options also giving a PFO, with 30-40 retirements per year that is really all that they need to replace per year for Captain spots with the revolving door for the FO spots.
This will not shut down Jazz, it will simply shrink us to the 2025 fleet sooner than later!

[truedude]

Not so much a revolving door as an exit sign. Inability to attract qualified candidates with uncompetitive pay scales will not keep up with attrition, which will now increase due to …… uncompetitive pay scales.

A refusal to accept that the industry has changed will only result in higher turnover rates. And competition for pilot labour has not eased.

Jazz could possibly be down to 90 airframes by YE2023, and 80 by YE2024. CPA guarantees are meaningless if pilot staffing prevents proper hull utilization rates required to meet monthly/annual block hour obligations.

Something has to give here. And apparently it isn’t recalibrated pilot pay. So it will probably be a CPA recalibration.

They can shrink us to nothing, because at this rate that is where we will be soon. I suspect the only reason people are coming here at all at the moment is because they think no company can possibly be this stupid and surly raises are on the horizon. Once this memo comes out, it should dispell any belief we will see a raise anytime soon.

If something doesn't change soon, I would say Jazz's days are numbered. We will be lucky to see the end of the decade.

To be clear, I have no idea how this will play out but I believe we will be 90-100 this year and possibly the 80 fin a year earlier, like rudder as said.
You’re are looking at it as though the pilots who want to go to AC could shut this mother down, those pilots are about half or slightly less than half of the current roster. I haven’t looked but I know that most pilots 7-800 and up to 1 are not leaving except for retirement, the rest are hoping to go so that will be a revolving door. However a lot of the bottom 500 are not eligible for flow right now so will be building time here in hope of a flow, if that becomes obviously not working, some will leave.
How many recent hire actually have an ATPL who can flow or go.
So, the question is could Jazz staff 90-100 airframes with the top 700 as mostly Captains and keep the right seat warm with a revolving door, my analysis says yes.
Some hires will stick around either due to PFO from AC or the other options also giving a PFO, with 30-40 retirements per year that is really all that they need to replace per year for Captain spots with the revolving door for the FO spots.
This will not shut down Jazz, it will simply shrink us to the 2025 fleet sooner than later!

I think you are being overly optimistic at who will stay if the company isn't prepared to move on pay. I never thought I would leave, and I am updating my resume and log book as we speak. I don't want to work for a company that is content to shrink over pay appropriate wages. It is demoralizing, and I have far too long in my career left to work for a company that clear does not give a s@%t. And if AC is your goal, it is clearly in your best interest to work somewhere else. Anywhere else. Not to mention, have you seen what happens to companies when moral goes through the floor. Book offs will go through the roof. And why wouldn't they? How can a company expect its employees to give a damn, when the company clearly doesn't?

Jazz will shrink. And then shrink some more. And then just disappear, because it will become such a dysfunctional company, it will no longer be economical for AC to keep doing business with us. One day I look forward to meeting the people involved in this stupidity, because I have no doubt it will be long remembered in Canadian aviation history. Right up there with AC ignoring Westjet, and then filing for bankruptcy a few years later.

[cdnavater]

They can shrink us to nothing, because at this rate that is where we will be soon. I suspect the only reason people are coming here at all at the moment is because they think no company can possibly be this stupid and surly raises are on the horizon. Once this memo comes out, it should dispell any belief we will see a raise anytime soon.

If something doesn't change soon, I would say Jazz's days are numbered. We will be lucky to see the end of the decade.

To be clear, I have no idea how this will play out but I believe we will be 90-100 this year and possibly the 80 fin a year earlier, like rudder as said.
You’re are looking at it as though the pilots who want to go to AC could shut this mother down, those pilots are about half or slightly less than half of the current roster. I haven’t looked but I know that most pilots 7-800 and up to 1 are not leaving except for retirement, the rest are hoping to go so that will be a revolving door. However a lot of the bottom 500 are not eligible for flow right now so will be building time here in hope of a flow, if that becomes obviously not working, some will leave.
How many recent hire actually have an ATPL who can flow or go.
So, the question is could Jazz staff 90-100 airframes with the top 700 as mostly Captains and keep the right seat warm with a revolving door, my analysis says yes.
Some hires will stick around either due to PFO from AC or the other options also giving a PFO, with 30-40 retirements per year that is really all that they need to replace per year for Captain spots with the revolving door for the FO spots.
This will not shut down Jazz, it will simply shrink us to the 2025 fleet sooner than later!

I think you are being overly optimistic at who will stay if the company isn't prepared to move on pay. I never thought I would leave, and I am updating my resume and log book as we speak. I don't want to work for a company that is content to shrink over pay appropriate wages. It is demoralizing, and I have far too long in my career left to work for a company that clear does not give a s@%t. And if AC is your goal, it is clearly in your best interest to work somewhere else. Anywhere else. Not to mention, have you seen what happens to companies when moral goes through the floor. Book offs will go through the roof. And why wouldn't they? How can a company expect its employees to give a damn, when the company clearly doesn't?

Jazz will shrink. And then shrink some more. And then just disappear, because it will become such a dysfunctional company, it will no longer be economical for AC to keep doing business with us. One day I look forward to meeting the people involved in this stupidity, because I have no doubt it will be long remembered in Canadian aviation history. Right up there with AC ignoring Westjet, and then filing for bankruptcy a few years later.

You won’t get much of an argument out of me on your post, just to say current seniority list 597 was hired in 2015 which means they have a DB pension to give up if they leave. After that, there are a 150 or so hired in 2016-2017, I would guess most of those are older and thinking going elsewhere is riskier than stay, which leads me to believe with 700 pilots we could staff the left seat for 80 plus fins and staff the right seat with the constant turnover.
I hope it turns out better but it’s looking grim these days!

[canadian_aviator_4]

I am curious to see what is the long term strategy: Jazz Management is blatantly stupid and prefers reduced revenue or there is a long term play here involving a strategy by Air Canada to increase their fleet to replace alot of regional flying. A way to combat staffing issues, by flying larger aircraft less frequently.

[cdnavater]

I am curious to see what is the long term strategy: Jazz Management is blatantly stupid and prefers reduced revenue or there is a long term play here involving a strategy by Air Canada to increase their fleet to replace alot of regional flying. A way to combat staffing issues, by flying larger aircraft less frequently.

Short answer, yes!
Jazz has reduced the CPA revenue mark up so much over the years that it’s not making Chorus a ton of money, I willing to bet most of the income from Jazz is in the form of leasing which is Horus revenue not Jazz.
I’m also willing to bet at 80-90 fins they will be 100% owned by Chrous and leased to Jazz.

[rudder]

You won’t get much of an argument out of me on your post, just to say current seniority list 597 was hired in 2015 which means they have a DB pension to give up if they leave. After that, there are a 150 or so hired in 2016-2017, I would guess most of those are older and thinking going elsewhere is riskier than stay, which leads me to believe with 700 pilots we could staff the left seat for 80 plus fins and staff the right seat with the constant turnover.
I hope it turns out better but it’s looking grim these days!

Junior DB Pilot around #550. However, there are former GGN and SKV pilots also in that top 550 that are NOT DB pilots.

Further, probably a minimum of 150 of the top 550 pilots are inactive. They are either on med leave, or management.

So, of the top 550 you might have 350-400 that are either active line pilots or in the Training Dept.

There are DB pilots looking at other options as well. There are some fairly lucrative DEC opportunities out there. Nobody wants to be the last one left on the ship.

[cdnavater]

You won’t get much of an argument out of me on your post, just to say current seniority list 597 was hired in 2015 which means they have a DB pension to give up if they leave. After that, there are a 150 or so hired in 2016-2017, I would guess most of those are older and thinking going elsewhere is riskier than stay, which leads me to believe with 700 pilots we could staff the left seat for 80 plus fins and staff the right seat with the constant turnover.
I hope it turns out better but it’s looking grim these days!

Junior DB Pilot around #550. However, there are former GGN and SKV pilots also in that top 550 that are NOT DB pilots.

Further, probably a minimum of 150 of the top 550 pilots are inactive. They are either on med leave, or management.

So, of the top 550 you might have 350-400 that are either active line pilots or in the Training Dept.

There are DB pilots looking at other options as well. There are some fairly lucrative DEC opportunities out there. Nobody wants to be the last one left on the ship.

True enough, I’ll turn out the light I guess!

[link821]

You won’t get much of an argument out of me on your post, just to say current seniority list 597 was hired in 2015 which means they have a DB pension to give up if they leave. After that, there are a 150 or so hired in 2016-2017, I would guess most of those are older and thinking going elsewhere is riskier than stay, which leads me to believe with 700 pilots we could staff the left seat for 80 plus fins and staff the right seat with the constant turnover.
I hope it turns out better but it’s looking grim these days!

Junior DB Pilot around #550. However, there are former GGN and SKV pilots also in that top 550 that are NOT DB pilots.

Further, probably a minimum of 150 of the top 550 pilots are inactive. They are either on med leave, or management.

So, of the top 550 you might have 350-400 that are either active line pilots or in the Training Dept.

There are DB pilots looking at other options as well. There are some fairly lucrative DEC opportunities out there. Nobody wants to be the last one left on the ship.

True enough, I’ll turn out the light I guess!

F**k it, leave em on.