schnitzel2k3 wrote:

Illya Kuryakin wrote:There are other good career flying jobs than just WJ and AC. Calm Air just scooped one of our guys, ( a real gentleman. They're lucky they have him )and the pay is better than either Encore or Jazz. No exotic destinations, but the benefits are pretty good.
But even the lowball pay cheques at Encore and Jazz are better than working a ramp for two years and signing your life away on a two year bond after that.

Definitely agree with better jobs out there - people are just too focused on the paved road to....riches....rather than the road less traveled.

But if you could go direct to Encore rather than work ramp for 36k - people probably wouldn't be complaining.

Unfortunately that is not the case, and a lot of the guys and gals going to Encore are 3-4k hour pilots with that 500+mpic (likely with lots of 704/05 and +12500 time) - pilots that were earning 65000+. They've invested 5-7 years or more of their life to take a huge financial step back for what some might argue is a better lifestyle....

*shrugs*

To each their own. Perhaps a financial planning/basic economics course should be mandatory with the CPL/ATPL application

Illya Kuryakin wrote:Ah, the lure of the heavy tin! To strut into your double wide that you share with a guy named Cletus, decked out in your custom tailored leather flight jacket, in time for reruns of Duck Dynasty...
Illya

Maxpwr wrote:Just gonna add my 2 cents to the situation here...Take it from me coming from a similar start up operation (Sky), Rome wasn't built in a day. I know things might be rough going at the beginning of such a start up but things will improve over time. I've never met a single person from the Westjet side of things that was unhappy. Just have faith in the same folk that came from team teal to run Encore. They want you to be happy. They're certainly not dreaming up new ways of screwing over the Encore pilots. DaveP has clearly stated that flow through will be 50% for May and 35% after that. There you go, improvement from 25%. I just hope that the guys that joined Encore didn't do it to have a quick and easy way to the mainline. It may not be a year, it may not be 2 years but you WILL be at mainline. You've done it. The hard part is over and your seat on the 737 is waiting for you. Which is much more than the folks at the AC Regionals can say. They're looking at many many many years before even having the opportunity to interview without guarantees. So I say count yourself lucky. Focus on incremental lifestyle improvements at Encore, how YOU can contribute to them, and put the mainline out of your mind for the time being. Otherwise you'll just go nuts waiting for your turn. Good luck to all!

Maxpwr wrote:Just gonna add my 2 cents to the situation here...Take it from me coming from a similar start up operation (Sky), Rome wasn't built in a day. I know things might be rough going at the beginning of such a start up but things will improve over time. I've never met a single person from the Westjet side of things that was unhappy. Just have faith in the same folk that came from team teal to run Encore. They want you to be happy. They're certainly not dreaming up new ways of screwing over the Encore pilots. DaveP has clearly stated that flow through will be 50% for May and 35% after that. There you go, improvement from 25%. I just hope that the guys that joined Encore didn't do it to have a quick and easy way to the mainline. It may not be a year, it may not be 2 years but you WILL be at mainline. You've done it. The hard part is over and your seat on the 737 is waiting for you. Which is much more than the folks at the AC Regionals can say. They're looking at many many many years before even having the opportunity to interview without guarantees. So I say count yourself lucky. Focus on incremental lifestyle improvements at Encore, how YOU can contribute to them, and put the mainline out of your mind for the time being. Otherwise you'll just go nuts waiting for your turn. Good luck to all!

Maxpwr wrote: ...Just have faith in the same folk that came from team teal to run Encore. They want you to be happy. They're certainly not dreaming up new ways of screwing over the Encore pilots...

Maxpwr wrote:You don't take a job on the "hopes" it will someday pay a wage you can accept. You either accept it at the time of offer or you don't. Simple. End of. Let the laws of supply and demand do the rest. You evaluate the total package which varies for each individual, consisting of pay, benefits, opportunities for advancement etc... and you make your own decision. What you can't do is take the job and shortly thereafter come on AvCanada and complain that they haven't upped your salary to 100k and rolled out the red carpet to your Boeing seat. This is starting to feel reminiscent of a story I heard at Jazz years ago....Picture it, a pilot all happy go-lucky after his successful interview at Jazz, smiles ear to ear shows up for his first day at Jazz groundschool: "Anybody have any questions?" pilot raises hand: "Ya, when do I get to go to Air Canada?"

My question is this...have they lied to you about anything regarding your employment? Did they promise more money after a certain amount of time? Was there a broken promise about upgrade times? Flow to mainline? Bueller? Bueller? I don't work there so I don't know.

Canadianjetpilot wrote:I'll give you a specific example:

Encore hired pilots to work 70hrs min guarantee and up to 20 days. Now, we've all seen this before right? Anything over and above these items together or separate and you're into OT right? Wrong. Some worked 21, 22, 23 ,24 days but only blocked less than 70hrs. Guess what? No Overtime Pay. Nice.

Yes they did address this issue (after the fact and without retro pay) when the pool all but dried up but only temporarily and the pool is filling again. With no agreement in place to clarify these things its open season.

Canadianjetpilot wrote:"I have a hard time seeing Encore forcing you to work 24 days. I can see it being optional, and in lieu getting 4 additional days off in your consecutive month if you did end up accepting those additional days."

If you thought you were getting 4 days of OT you may have worked those as well.

"Or no... am I reading that you are forced to work 24 days simply because you haven't blocked 70 hours? That seems to go against policy, no?

It was a function of a number of things: maintenance issues, IROPS, crewing, deadheading, scheduling conflicts.

The pilots dug the company out from under a mountain of screw-ups to help out and to make a few more bucks but they had a 'misconception' of how their compensation was structured.

"Further, anyone I'm speaking with on the inside seems to believe that the hours will not roll back to 70 hours. And that it only seems to be a concern by people on the outside of the company."

Well if history is any indicator WJA pilots thought the cost of living adjustment would carry through after their 2009 agreement expired but guess what...they did not...because WJA had no contractual obligation to pay it they hung on to that coin. As it stands they have no obligation to the WJE pilots to extend the 80hr min.

"Reason being that 70 hours is under utilization of crew, 90 is over utilization of crew, and that 80 hours is the median for any regional airline. Is this true? Are you guys at Encore literally not concerned about the roll back to 70 hours? It affects pay by about 6000 dollars / year for F/O's and 10 000 / year for Captains."

Oh they are concerned alright. WRT the utilization you are absolutely right, it was terribly inefficient. Keep in mind WJ crew were not paid for DH

"Lastly, how much does the ESP/Profit Share bridge the Gap? I have spoken to Encore pilot's saying it's not uncommon for Captains T4 to be in the vicinity of 90k in the first year and F/O's around 50k/yr in the First Year. Is this true? "

ESP. For one they only offered 10% ESP to those people who were going to come to WJE at 80% industry comp to help build Encore. A pathetic gesture at best.

Secondly if you did do the full 10% and the company matched 10% you are now taxed on that total amount BUT are only bringing home 80% of that amount after tax or about $865 per pay-cheque or a whopping $11.77/HR ( whats min wage these days??)

Maxpwr wrote:I think you're incorrect as to how overtime works. If your contract says Max 20 days a month of flying and you fly 21 then you just worked on a day off and get overtime rate for 1 day. The other possibility is you work like a rented mule in 19 scheduled days and do 100hrs then you get 90 at regular pay and 10 at overtime rate. That's how it worked at every airline I've been at. If people worked past the 20 scheduled days then anything passed that should be paid at the overtime rate.