AC Sueing Westjet

[cyyz]

So much for your corporate ethics..

I suspect in your world its okay to sell drugs to kids, as long as its not your kids. Anything for a buck, hey...

ROFL.. "Corporate Ethics" lol you must be one of my high school teachers.. Every chapter rambled on about "business ethics" let me tell you something. Every guest speaker except for 2 were honest enough to talk about the truth the others just said "ofcourse our company is ethical." and went on to the next question.

The truth?? If you want to survive in the corporate world it's eat or be eatin.. Sorry.. No corporation has "corporate ethics" we'd all be making 7 digit figures if that was the case, we would never be laid off. We'd be given 40hours of work for 40hrs a week.

and from a customers stand point, they wouldn't be Overcharged for a product, they wouldn't be allowed to buy fatty greasy fast food, smokes, beers, cars well pretty much anything..

Take your ethics and shove it up your arse.

As for selling drugs to kids.. <hrmm> lets think about this shall we? 3 of my friends were in the hospital after smoking some pot that was laced. 1 has had an acid trip so bad he jumped 3 stories. Yes, I'd rather sell drugs or let the gov't sell drugs to "children"/anyone. Instead of letting other scum that sells it now.

We should educate people about this crap first and then let them do whatever the heck they want. So they can't have frivolous law suits "no one told me smoking is bad" and so we could start shooting drunk drivers "sorry, didn't mean to run your brother over, but I was drunk.."

Conclusion, no such thing as business ethics, not in real life.

[Wilbur]

CYYZ, the only people who say there are no ethics in business are people who've never owned or operated a business.

Sure, there is lots of grey area in the whole subject of ethics because what constitutes ethical behaviour is highly subjective. However, businesses that last and grow generally deal with their customers, suppliers, and industry members in an honest fashion. To be successful in any business requires the development of trusting relationships. Ask yourself, would you want to do business with someone who had been dishonest with others? Some will, many will not. When the number of "will nots" becomes too large you are out of business.

I really don't think WJ has done themselves any favours here if they did engage in theft of information. Obviously their relationship with AC is of no consequence, but what impact will it have on their relationships with other businesses they deal with? For example, will they collect and sell information about my frieght shipping habits or movement of company personnel? Simply put, if their senior management conspired to break into AC's computer system and steal data, what else are they willing to do?

[oldtimer]

Wilbur - I like the way you think. Be concise.
I wonder if a big company like Westjet, and I am sure Air Canada, all have lawyers on retainer or on staff and all hold daily or at least weekly conferances and meetings and discuss every aspect of the companies operations. Lawyers will be present and if someone has a brain storm about stealing secrets, called proprietary information, the lawers will advise if it is legal. If someone did it on their own, I am sure heads will roll. On the other hand, companies have been known to hire corperate spies and some parts of their activity is legal, such as standing by the fence to photograph new cars or new paint schemes.

[Go Guns]

If somebody @ Westjet screwed up like Air Canada alleges, they should, and will most likely, take the fall. Westjet is one of Canada's most respected corparations. I'm sure this sort of title isn't granted easily and Westjet will do what it takes to keep it. Altough what was done was nothing more than a high-tech way of sitting @ the gate and counting passengers getting on your competitiors aircraft, something all airlines have done. However, going onboard their res system is almost like going onboard the competitors Aircraft to count pax, it's just a step too far.

Some of Air Canada's comments about this case though are more than a little far fetched. The move from YHM to YYZ was based on the fact that Hamilton wasn't stimulating the market that Wesjet expected. Hamilton was a great place to start in the east and check out the market. They offered a cheap alternative to Pearson and therefor a cheap way to see how well Westjet would sell in the east. Now that Westjet has a solid foundation in Eastern Canada, why wouldn't they move to Pearson? It's no secret that Pearson is the busiest airport in Canada. It's therefor not hard to comprehend that Air Canada probably does a booming business out of Pearson, being the dominant carrier there by a longshot.

Air Canada alleges that the information was instrumental in WestJet expanding its market share in Canada from 10 per cent to 30 per cent since January, 2000.

But they said Westjet didn't start accessing the information until March of 2003? Meaning that Westjet grabbed some of that 20 per cent increase during the three years they didn't have access to Air Canada's res system. In those three years Westjet epanded to YMM, YQQ, YYZ, YXU, YGQ, and YHZ. They also allready announced service to YUL, YYT, and YQX before any of this took place.

Air Canada had the opportunity to bring the RCMP white collar crime unit in to investigate but didn't, why? I think what Air Canada want's the most out of this whole mess is to surround Westjet with some bad press, maybe take some of the heat of them.

I know this whole post sounds pretty pro-Westjet. Make no mistake about it though, if what Air Canada says is true then justice should be done and heads should roll. However some of the claims Air Canada has made over the issue strike me as a little outrageous.

I suspect in your world its okay to sell drugs to kids, as long as its not your kids. Anything for a buck, hey

Rebel, in no way do I think corporate espionage is morally acceptable, However I think selling drugs to kids is morally wrong on a completly different level. I can't understand how you related the two.......

[cyyz]

CYYZ, the only people who say there are no ethics in business are people who've never owned or operated a business.

Sure, there is lots of grey area in the whole subject of ethics because what constitutes ethical behaviour is highly subjective. However, businesses that last and grow generally deal with their customers, suppliers, and industry members in an honest fashion. To be successful in any business requires the development of trusting relationships. Ask yourself, would you want to do business with someone who had been dishonest with others? Some will, many will not. When the number of "will nots" becomes too large you are out of business.

McDonald's.. I seem to recall, obesity is at it's highest levels ever.
Tobacco corps.. Seem to recall you can get cancer from those.
Cars/airplanes.. Seem to recall they pollute the earth..

Dell.. seem to recall their home-use computer call center being moved to India. Lots of employees out of work..
Bre-X, Enron, Nortel. How's their stock doing again?
Martha, Milton, Tyco guys.

And lastly the worst run business in the world... Government.. How much was spent promoting Quebec, a gun registry?

Sorry can't say businesses are ethical at all. They have one concern themselves.. They'd kill you if it was legal to make an extra dollar.

But you're right it is subjective.... But it shouldn't, it's either right or wrong no middle ground. Either you have a problem with WJ "stealing" info, or you assume it was mismanagement at AC and WJ just looked at something that was "public" info.

It's either a "free market/capitalism" or it isn't. Or that's the way it should be.. But obviously Politicians, tree huggers and other lobby groups have really screwed up the system and people are forced to walk a fine line..

[Rebel]

WestJet downgraded over lawsuit

Scott Adams
Financial Post
Tuesday, April 13, 2004

It's often hard to assess how a lawsuit is going to weigh upon a company, but some analysts are taking Air Canada's corporate espionage suit against WestJet Airlines Ltd. seriously.

TD Newcrest analyst Brian Morrison downgraded WestJet to "speculative buy" and his target to $30 from $35 yesterday based on the uncertainty of the suit.

After reading the statement of claim, Mr. Morrison said in a research note that "it does appear that the claim against WestJet may have merit. Again, we stress that even should the claim have merit in the determination of the courts, assessing any court award if any remains difficult at best."

"While we are not defending the alleged actions launched against WestJet, we should note that in our opinion airlines throughout the world constantly study their competition through various forms other than just that of publicly filed reports. The question that arises [is,] have the allegations launched against WestJet crossed the line of assessing the competition, and if so to what extent?"

Mr. Morrison notes that WestJet's profits amounted to $60.5-million in 2003, $51.8-million in 2002, $36.7-million in 2001 and $30.3-million in 2000. If the alleged espionage began in 2000, the total increase in profits in the next three years equals $58.3-million. This could be WestJet's worse-case exposure to the suit, he estimates, warning that this is purely guesswork.

BMO Nesbitt Burns analyst Claude Proulx also placed his rating and estimates on WestJet under review yesterday until he has more information about the suit.

- - -

[Rebel]

WestJet warned by judge not to use any confidential Air Canada information

Last Updated Thu, 15 Apr 2004 17:02:41
TORONTO - An Ontario court judge on Thursday directed WestJet not to use any confidential information the discount carrier may have on Air Canada.

Ontario Superior Court Justice Ian Nordheimer issued his warning on the first day of court proceedings in Air Canada's industrial espionage lawsuit against WestJet. Calgary-based WestJet agreed to the judge's request.

Air Canada did suffer a setback when Nordheimer declined to force WestJet to immediately turn over some documents.

The judge said an interim order forcing WestJet to turn over the documents was not necessary. A hearing on the issue will take place in June.

Meanwhile, lawyers for Calgary-based WestJet argued that the case should be heard in Alberta, even though Air Canada filed the suit in Ontario. Nordheimer will decide in late May where the case will be heard.

Air Canada filed the lawsuit against WestJet Airlines and two employees earlier this month, charging that the discount carrier obtained information about Air Canada using a private web site.

[Blastor]

The fact is WJ got caught.

WJ raised their price on all routes too. Just check their website

The question should be: Will WJ become Air Canada?

[Rebel]

Hmm In my opinion WJ raising their fares is a healthy sign for aviation. Flying airplanes is an expensive business and all the folks working in this industry are now paying the price for all these ridiculously low fares.

Don’t you be fretting none about Clive, he’s already got his 100 Million put away nice and safe.

[FamilyGuy]

Hear hear...

[Rebel]

Carrier to seek millions
By Paul WaldieThursday,
April 22, 2004 – The Globe and Mail Page 8

Air Canada is expected to seek hundreds of millions of dollars in damages from WestJet Airlines Ltd. in a lawsuit over allegations involving stolen computer files, sources said.

"We are not talking peanuts here, we are talking big money," a source close to the airline said.

Another source said he had heard that Montreal-based Air Canada will be seeking damages in the range of $400-million.

The airline is suing WestJet and two of its officials in Ontario over allegations they illegally accessed an employee website to obtain confidential information about flights on Air Canada and its subsidiary Zip.

Calgary-based WestJet has not responded to the allegations but it has put the employees, including a company co-founder, on paid leave of absence while it investigates. None of the allegations have been proven in court.

Air Canada did not specify damages when it filed the lawsuit on April 6, but it said it would be seeking compensation for "loss of revenue and profits."

The airline has alleged that WestJet used the information to triple its market share in the past three years.

A source said Air Canada has hired a team of experts to calculate the damages.

"Air Canada will say that you don't look at its profits to determine what it lost, you look at the incremental revenue it lost," the source said.

Revenue allegedly earned by WestJet as a result of the information will also be part of the overall damage calculation, the source added

© Copyright 2004 Bell Globemedia Publishing Inc. All Rights Reserved.

[cyyz]

Funny how AC has money to keep paying lawyers, but can't pay it's employees?

[Go Guns]

The airline has alleged that WestJet used the information to triple its market share in the past three years.

Air Canada did not specify damages when it filed the lawsuit on April 6, but it said it would be seeking compensation for "loss of revenue and profits."

Regardless of whether or not Westjet took information from Air Canada, Westjet's marketshare would've gone up one way or the other and Air Canada would still be in the red.

[Rebel]

Thompsonav8rboy

"Regardless of whether or not Westjet took information from Air Canada, Westjet's marketshare would've gone up one way or the other and Air Canada would still be in the red.[/quote]"

Gee if WJ's business plan is so superior to everyone else's why did they find it necessary to design a spy-ware software program and use it 250,000 times? But I digress ...

[Yoyoma]

Spyware???

Oh my god, we should burn them... Why do you think 4 billion dollars/year are put in R&D at HP every year?? Yep, to innovate

Business is business...by any means...

[Rebel]

Yoyoma

If I recall correctly wasn't it AF that installed spy-ware in all its' business class seats with the approval of the French Government?

From the latest book on Warren Buffett Wealth: "Principles and Practical Methods Used by the World's Greatest Investor"

Quote: "Buffett won't invest in a company unless he's convinced that its top mangers have the highest ethical standards"

Maybe you should read the book..

[Yoyoma]

Sure is, but it is an every day business reality...!!! Didn't say it was right but I'd like to see a company survive without it...

Quote: Maybe you should read the book..

What Buffett doesn't say is that he's surrounded by the Business world top "strategists" ---> They don't spy, they just inspire themselves before investing! Read the book?? Not all answers are in his purposely vague book...

Cheers

[Rebel]

Quote

"Not all answers are in his purposely vague book..."

I expect not as the book is positioned as an investment primer.

Cheers..

[Yoyoma]

Quote

"Not all answers are in his purposely vague book..."

I expect not as the book is positioned as an investment primer.

Cheers..

Then you should be on your way to great wealth after reading it??

L B S's education is also a primer in the field but costs about 7000 times more over 2 years...Why bother then, let's just read the book!

[Trickkles]

No new winglets. Haven't seen a new tail number with winglets lately. Also, live TV has been delayed, delayed and delayed. Haven't seen any SatCom bubbles on the planes too. SO......

I'm waiting for AC's RJ's to come to YYC.

[CanadaEH]

No new winglets. Haven't seen a new tail number with winglets lately. Also, live TV has been delayed, delayed and delayed. Haven't seen any SatCom bubbles on the planes too. SO......

I don't know when winglets are going to start being installed again, but I believe we don't have any spare -700's to take out of service right now.

New aircraft won't be arriving with winglets until October.

LiveTV.. what a sh!tshow that's been........................

Sattellite bubbles don't get installed until the aircraft gets taken out of service to have the whole LiveTV system installed. As of right now, tail 010 is the only aircraft that currently has LiveTV installed and that's been sitting in MCO for the past month. Thank you TC and thank you FAA.

[zzjayca]

In its statement of claim filed in Ontario Superior Court, Air Canada alleges WestJet, Lafond, and Mark Hill — the airline's vice-president of strategic planning — used the information to identify Air Canada's most profitable flights and times.

Maybe I'm wrong but, the fact that Air Canada is a publicly traded company should mean that the information that was allegedly stolen, is available to any shareholder.

[Wilbur]

No. Simply being a shareholder does not give you the right to know every detail of a company's daily operations.