Landing fee at CYOS

[rookiepilot]

And you? What have you successfully run?

Given the context, and given I'm attacking your position, that is a fair question.

I've run two businesses - one successful and one not. Both were one or two man operations though, Three IT departments were under my purview in my time at various points, admittedly all for small/medium businesses. I'm not entirely talking out of my ass here.

If the airport's that viable, why doesn't someone - like the school -- make a pitch to buy it?

[rookiepilot]

I'm unimpressed with asking the town to dump more money,

I"m entirely happy to ask the town to dump more money. They spaff the stuff all over town on things in which I have no interest whatsoever, and lots of people campaign without feeling bad for those causes.

Same question.
Have you ever served, by running for town council? Volunteered extensively in an organization?

No? At least make a proper, detailed business case analysis.
This petition isn't one. At all.

If I was this flight school owner, I'd be up nights, getting my specific hard facts in order first -- then present.

I guess that's too much work.

It's a wish list.

[photofly]

The airport's not viable. It's never going to be viable. You might as well ask when a headless dog is going to be viable. That's not the point. It's a public resource, and the town owns it. They need to suck it up. They have a moral duty to provide a service. Owen Sound is a municipality that owns a bunch of libraries, beaches, a harbour, and an airport. It's the duty of a municipality to treasure the facilities it owns, not to run them into the ground with obscene fees. (And it's entirely appropriate to use the public library as an analogy. Perhaps if they bussed homeless people to warm themselves in the airport pilot lounge the town council might regard the airport more approvingly.)

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

If the airport's that viable, why doesn't someone - like the school -- make a pitch to buy it?

He's arguing that the airport currently costs $1/month/resident, and that a majority of residents support this arrangement. It would seem to me, assuming he's correct about the majority support, that this is a pretty bad decision. He does not dispute that it is a money losing business. He argues that it would lose less money if it had a real business plan, and that this is a better solution than landing fees.

I would also surmise that as a flight school owner, he lacks the necessary resources to invest sufficiently enough money in it to make it financially viable, and that the town/municipality does not; in which case, the best course of action would be to organize support, as he is doing.

[rookiepilot]

The airport's not viable. It's never going to be viable. You might as well ask when a headless dog is going to be viable. That's not the point. It's a public resource, and the town owns it. They need to suck it up. They have a moral duty to provide a service. Owen Sound is a municipality that owns a bunch of libraries, beaches, a harbour, and an airport. It's the duty of a municipality to treasure the facilities it owns, not to run them into the ground with obscene fees. (And it's entirely appropriate to use the public library as an analogy. Perhaps if they bussed homeless people to warm themselves in the airport pilot lounge the town council might regard the airport more approvingly.)

Uhmm wrong. Have you run any kind of an organization?
A moral duty? Huh?

[rookiepilot]

If the airport's that viable, why doesn't someone - like the school -- make a pitch to buy it?

He's arguing that the airport currently costs $1/month/resident, and that a majority of residents support this arrangement. It would seem to me, assuming he's correct about the majority support, that this is a pretty bad decision. He does not dispute that it is a money losing business. He argues that it would lose less money if it had a real business plan, and that this is a better solution than landing fees.

I would also surmise that as a flight school owner, he lacks the necessary resources to invest sufficiently enough money in it to make it financially viable, and that the town/municipality does not; in which case, the best course of action would be to organize support, as he is doing.

You -- sorry he -/ knows a majority of residents support that expense -- how?

Look. I deal in logic. Not emotional arguments

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

A moral duty? Huh?

Yes. Government has a moral duty to provide services. This is why we pay taxes. Which services they are morally obliged to provide is up for debate - but the principle is not.

You -- sorry he -/ knows a majority of residents support that expense -- how?

Look. I deal in logic. Not emotional arguments

I'll give you that. I'm taking his word on it.

[photofly]

Uhmm wrong. Have you run any kind of an organization?

A moral duty? Huh?I'm a tax payer, and this is about the use of tax money, about which I have an opinion, and about which I am entitled to an opinion. You can take your "I know everything about business and everyone else should bow to me" bullshit and get fucked.

[rookiepilot]

A moral duty? Huh?

Yes. Government has a moral duty to provide services. This is why we pay taxes. Which services they are morally bliged to provide is up for debate - but the principle is not.

Exactly. Run for office, Red Baron.

[rookiepilot]

I'm a tax payer, and this is about the use of tax money, about which I have an opinion, and about which I am entitled to an opinion. You can take your "I know everything about business and everyone else should bow to me" bullshit and get fucked.

Ooooo. Winner!

That win over the council!

[photofly]

Exactly. Run for office, Red Baron.

Or you know, maybe just lobby, by starting or signing a petition?

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Exactly. Run for office, Red Baron.

Haha. I'm antisocial and argue with everyone. I doubt that would work out.

I've considered it, though,

[rookiepilot]

A moral duty? Huh?

Yes. Government has a moral duty to provide services. This is why we pay taxes. Which services they are morally obliged to provide is up for debate - but the principle is not.

You -- sorry he -/ knows a majority of residents support that expense -- how?

Look. I deal in logic. Not emotional arguments

I'll give you that. I'm taking his word on it.

Trust, and verify.

[rookiepilot]

Exactly. Run for office, Red Baron.

Haha. I'm antisocial and argue with everyone. I doubt that would work out.

I've considered it, though,

Cool. Really.

[rookiepilot]

Exactly. Run for office, Red Baron.

Or you know, maybe just lobby, by starting or signing a petition?

That's fine. But make a business case, with hard numbers. It's not THAT hard.

This guy runs a flight school. He's perfectly equipped to do that. He ought to know the data better than anyone. If he won't, why should I care?

I suspect -- he probably knows the hard numbers (as to demand ) /- and they aren't pretty. I could be wrong. Hence , the petition speaks in generalities.

There are a lot of competing interests for public dollars, and it's only getting worse.

As I said, in the north, with airports far apart, the medevac is a much more important issue.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Exactly. Run for office, Red Baron.

Or you know, maybe just lobby, by starting or signing a petition?

That's fine. But make a business case, with hard numbers. It's not THAT hard.

This guy runs a flight school. He's perfectly equipped to do that. He ought to know the data better than anyone. If he won't, why should I care?

There are a lot of competing interests for public dollars, and it's only getting worse.

I think you're missing a large part of the point. I don't think he's arguing for more public money to be spent on the airport; he's arguing that that money should come from somewhere other than landing fees He has, in fact, proposed a few solutions, most of which do not involve tax dollars. He's arguing that these landing fees are a kneejerk reaction by people who don't fully understand the problem.

What he's done is just a start. I don't doubt that given his stake, ($350/hr to practice touch and gos would sink most flight schools) he'll soon be investing a lot more time into finding a better solution.

Did you read the petition (I think this is also a fair question - to quote the great Rookie, "trust but verify")?

[rookiepilot]

Or you know, maybe just lobby, by starting or signing a petition?

That's fine. But make a business case, with hard numbers. It's not THAT hard.

This guy runs a flight school. He's perfectly equipped to do that. He ought to know the data better than anyone. If he won't, why should I care?

There are a lot of competing interests for public dollars, and it's only getting worse.

I think you're missing a large part of the point. I don't think he's arguing for more public money to be spent on the airport; he's arguing that that money should come from somewhere other than landing fees He has, in fact, proposed a few solutions, most of which do not involve tax dollars. He's arguing that these landing fees are a kneejerk reaction by people who don't fully understand the problem.

What he's done is just a start. I don't doubt that given his stake, he'll soon be investing a lot more time into finding a better solution.

Did you read the petition (I think this is also a fair question - to quote the great Rookie, "trust but verify")?

Yes. He's asking for cheaper fuel, a sponsored vehicle, the restaurant to be reopened by the town, and cheaper leases.

Where's the business case this spending -- will add to demand?

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I think you're missing a large part of the point. I don't think he's arguing for more public money to be spent on the airport; he's arguing that that money should come from somewhere other than landing fees He has, in fact, proposed a few solutions, most of which do not involve tax dollars. He's arguing that these landing fees are a kneejerk reaction by people who don't fully understand the problem.

What he's done is just a start. I don't doubt that given his stake, he'll soon be investing a lot more time into finding a better solution.

Did you read the petition (I think this is also a fair question - to quote the great Rookie, "trust but verify")?

Yes. He's asking for cheaper fuel, a sponsored vehicle, the restaurant to be reopened by the town, and cheaper leases.

Where's the business case this spending -- will add to demand?

I don't think it's up for debate that cheaper fuel and cheaper rent will increase demand. Whether it would be profitable or even sustainable is another question. A restaurant would most definitely increase demand. People fly in for their $100 burgers, buy their competitively priced gas, and fly back. Those points are not ridiculous. The sponsored vehicle, on the other hand... I missed that.

[edit]

Consider sponsoring a curtesy vehicle to help to connect out of town pilots to local business in town.

Spelling aside, a lot of airports do that. They're generally pretty rent-a-wreck quality vehicles, but it's not an abnormal proposition to have a courtesy vehicle for visiting out-of-towners.

[rookiepilot]

Simple question.

Whats the aircraft movements for the last 10 + years there? Wiarton too. Year by year.

That would say a lot.

[Squaretail]

While not wanting to wade too much into this, the operative questions would be how much revenue for the town does the airport generate, in tax dollars and business vs what it’s current operating budget is. In almost every airport I have ever seen, not withstanding an exorbitant salary for the airport manager, the maintenance costs ,barring major repairs, is pretty low and the net flow of cash is to the benefit of the local community. Especially if there is a business on the field, since airport businesses tend to draw business from out of town. It’s hard to imagine a scenario where the flight school is viable but the airport isn’t without some waste in operating expenses.

[photofly]

The airport is managed under contract: whoever wins the bid can appoint themselves (or someone else) as airport manager and employ as many or as few staff as they want out of their contract budget, as long as the runway is cleaned and cleared, the terminal staffed and open, and fuel is available.

Unfortunately CYOS does not appear to report movement statistics - it should be in StatsCanada table 23-10-0016-01 but isn't.

[rookiepilot]

While not wanting to wade too much into this, the operative questions would be how much revenue for the town does the airport generate, in tax dollars and business vs what it’s current operating budget is. In almost every airport I have ever seen, not withstanding an exorbitant salary for the airport manager, the maintenance costs ,barring major repairs, is pretty low and the net flow of cash is to the benefit of the local community. Especially if there is a business on the field, since airport businesses tend to draw business from out of town. It’s hard to imagine a scenario where the flight school is viable but the airport isn’t without some waste in operating expenses.

Simmonds noted the airport will require about $1.3 million in upgrades – mostly to resurface the runway – in the next five years.

[photofly]

It's cute to call resurfacing an "upgrade", but if it's needed to maintain condition then it's maintenance, and you should have been budgeting for it. Municipalities are also required to maintain roads, parks, libraries, beaches, and harbours, and should have expertise at that. So suck it up, and pay for your infrastructure.

[rookiepilot]

It's cute to call resurfacing an "upgrade", but if it's needed to maintain condition then it's maintenance, and you should have been budgeting for it. Municipalities are also required to maintain roads, parks, libraries, beaches, and harbours, and should have expertise at that. So suck it up, and pay for your infrastructure.

Maybe the town is broke. Maybe it's tax revenue is shrinking.

Should they close the libraries to resurface rhe runway? How about the hospital?

[photofly]

The town doesn't fund the hospital, that's the province. You should know that, Mr I've-run-everything-under-the-sun. Didn't your successful stint as a hospital chief executive teach you anything?

>Maybe the town is broke.
Maybe it isn't. Maybe, if it is, the correct response is to elect a new council and sack the city manager. If it is, why does everyone else's incompetence fall on the pilot community to fix?