No pilot recalls until Spring 2023???

[flyinggenius35]

We will be the last furloughed group of pilots in Canada offered our positions back (are we already?).

Keep in mind we were also the first ones kicked to the curb with CERB. NHL.

I plead to ACPA to not do something stupid to get us on property quicker.... all the while taking further concessions. We’re already coming back to 10% less.

Before claiming acpa is disconnected, ask the bottom 10% at Transat if they feel they will get back before you. Ignorance is bliss.
So you already know you're on the cargo 767 to be coming back at -10%? Or the rest that hasn't changed?

Are we comparing a vacation charter airline that has a hard time turning a profit to a legacy flag carrier again?

Seriously.

It’s like comparing Spirit with United.

[altiplano]

I agree with your analogy... Except Spirit makes money so even more so...

[acpaleaks]

I agree with your analogy... Except Spirit makes money so even more so...

I'd love to work at Spirit ...

Their pilots are actually respected AND have respect for themselves and don't jump at every shadow they see ending with a "yes" vote.

[RippleRock]

So here we are.

600 fine employees on furlough, while our sole connector, Jazz will be fully manned within 30 days flying our former EMJ 175's on our own routes. I'm hearing rumblings of 90 hour block months.

This is the exact "death by 1000 cuts" that we have been talking about for the last 15 years. We have fallen down our slippery slope, and find ourselves battered on a ledge 2/3'rds they way to the bottom of "our former selves". There is no way the Membership of "yesteryear" would have allowed this to occur. The park brake would have been set on a single "outsourced" Canadair RJ with 50 seats.

You guys and gals had better figure out which direction you are going. Back a lousy concessionary union that does nothing but "capitulate" to try appear like a "Savior", when they are actually viewed and taken advantage of as "chumps" that couldn't negotiate themselves out of a wet paper sack, and continue to fall to the bottom.

OR....stand up and vote NO for ONCE, no more MOU's, no more pay concessions while Members are on furlough and start back up the mountain with the first step.

Get some damn self respect.

[RRJetPilot]

I think CUPE would represent the pilots better than ACPA. Ridiculous.

[a220hereicome]

I think CUPE would represent the pilots better than ACPA. Ridiculous.

Right.

7000 FA layoffs (about 80% of the workforce) while those remaining are blocked to 80 hours, with some flying over 100 hours/month and bragging that they've never been busier.

Is that what you had in mind?

[RRJetPilot]

Yup. No permanent concessions on their end. Stood up to the company bullshit. If you think AC didnt lay off exactly how many pilots they wanted I will sell you a bridge. All while completely gutting scope and the contract. You dont seem to understand the complexities of laying of pilots in a mixed fleet environment. People like you are the reasons we are the bottom in the world in pay. If you want to be compared to an FA please, help us out and switch jobs. We dont need people like you here bringing us down.

[rudder]

Comparing Jazz to AC is like apples to oranges.

I don’t see AC flying 220/320/737 to YSB anytime soon.

Recovery is domestic and to a certain extent trans border. Meanwhile, AC was built in to a massive long haul network and fleet. Massively exposed as global travel restrictions ease in a very uneven way.

ACPA gave relief to AC on scope ratios until end of 2022 as part of a broader deal. I am certain that the minute it expires ACPA will be all over it if there are still AC pilots on layoff.

Hopefully rumours of mainline recalls in 2022 prove to be accurate.

[RippleRock]

I think CUPE would represent the pilots better than ACPA. Ridiculous.

Right.

7000 FA layoffs (about 80% of the workforce) while those remaining are blocked to 80 hours, with some flying over 100 hours/month and bragging that they've never been busier.

Is that what you had in mind?

Those that don't like how "seniority" works can maybe not try to get employed by a carrier that has one? Maybe?

I think those that brag about "excess work" are in the definite minority. It's no different on the pilot side, there are plenty of draft hogs and VO listers...... however, the FA's elected reps aren't doing 90 hour months.

Layoffs are a way of life in Aviation. Those that don't get that when they start are either naive or stupid. Those that don't get layed-off at least once are in the lucky minority.

You could try to justify the 50 and 63 hour lets forever, but the fact remains that ACPA signed a Let to allow outsourcing and scope violations to mitigate layoffs. There is NO WAY that we would have layed-off as many pilots as FA's. The cascading downbid would have been paralyzingly expensive and time consuming. There is no way they would have left themselves that short for the time it took to retrain everyone. Pilot payroll is too cheep in the big scheme of things.....especially when there is a risk of a manning shortage and parked planes. Pilots need to get that through their thick skulls.

Unfortunately, pilots don't think that way. They think that the entire operation depends on them and that they are "kingpin" to the success or failure of the Corp. That's rubbish. Pilots are like engines. Not one plane leaves without two of them. Marketing and strategic planning determine the number of pilots on payroll, not "generous gives" from a union that literally trips over itself to look like "good little helpers" at the expense of their members financial viability. The Corp couldn't care less if the pilots "gave" or not, so little is payroll to the "big picture".

The real kicker is that ACPA gave flying away to save lay-off that likely didn't need much saving. The 50 and 63 hour "gives" are icing on the cake.

[altiplano]

AC Pilots are apples and oranges to Jazz Pilots, it is true... they have scope and own their flying... they also have shitty representation, so they give it away. The terms ACPA conceded are profoundly short sighted and inadequate. I can just imagine how hard it must have been for the company negotiators to keep a straight face when we were signing.

YSB is hardly representative of the extent of it... EWR, LGA, ATL, ORD, IAH, SFO, BOS, IAD, DEN, CLT...

Clearly New York or DC or San Francisco supports a 320... most of those airports are major United hubs too.

Also Jazz operates extensively between large and midsized Canadian cities.

We're even dummer than I thought we were extending that relief all the way until 2023... uncapped CPA aircraft limits, 35% of total system block hours to CPA, no minimum Mainline NB/320/737 fin requirements...

And that was how we settled it... let them right of the hook for the violation and in fact endorsed it's continuation!

What did we get?

A 1 year 900 hour guarantee for people on property not on fixed pay that will be declared null when the COV-MOA gets extended. Meanwhile the regional guys are all recalled and flying 90 hour months... Should be us recalling and flying 80 hour months in the summer

We're so good are helping the company that they all give themselves congratulatory bonuses! Time to help ourselves for a change. Not-one-more-inch-ever from me.

[iflyroads]

Hopefully rumours of mainline recalls in 2022 prove to be accurate.

We may find out in a week

[acpaleaks]

2023.

[acpaleaks]

So here we are.

600 fine employees on furlough, while our sole connector, Jazz will be fully manned within 30 days flying our former EMJ 175's on our own routes. I'm hearing rumblings of 90 hour block months.

This is the exact "death by 1000 cuts" that we have been talking about for the last 15 years. We have fallen down our slippery slope, and find ourselves battered on a ledge 2/3'rds they way to the bottom of "our former selves". There is no way the Membership of "yesteryear" would have allowed this to occur. The park brake would have been set on a single "outsourced" Canadair RJ with 50 seats.

You guys and gals had better figure out which direction you are going. Back a lousy concessionary union that does nothing but "capitulate" to try appear like a "Savior", when they are actually viewed and taken advantage of as "chumps" that couldn't negotiate themselves out of a wet paper sack, and continue to fall to the bottom.

OR....stand up and vote NO for ONCE, no more MOU's, no more pay concessions while Members are on furlough and start back up the mountain with the first step.

Get some damn self respect.

With Mike McKay at the helm of ACPA, literally nothing you said matters.

[acpaleaks]

I think CUPE would represent the pilots better than ACPA. Ridiculous.

Right.

7000 FA layoffs (about 80% of the workforce) while those remaining are blocked to 80 hours, with some flying over 100 hours/month and bragging that they've never been busier.

Is that what you had in mind?

Do you work for ACPA? Did you buy into the fear that the company would "lay off half the pilots" if we didn't have the MOA?

Bullshit.

Just look at the mess of training that already exists and the HUGE undertaking it's going to be just to get 600 back on property and trained. FA's lost in huge numbers because 1) they are all trained to the same level 2) recalling is fast and easy (and cheap).

Stop buying into the fear.

[acpaleaks]

AC Pilots are apples and oranges to Jazz Pilots, it is true... they have scope and own their flying... they also have shitty representation, so they give it away. The terms ACPA conceded are profoundly short sighted and inadequate. I can just imagine how hard it must have been for the company negotiators to keep a straight face when we were signing.

YSB is hardly representative of the extent of it... EWR, LGA, ATL, ORD, IAH, SFO, BOS, IAD, DEN, CLT...

Clearly New York or DC or San Francisco supports a 320... most of those airports are major United hubs too.

Also Jazz operates extensively between large and midsized Canadian cities.

We're even dummer than I thought we were extending that relief all the way until 2023... uncapped CPA aircraft limits, 35% of total system block hours to CPA, no minimum Mainline NB/320/737 fin requirements...

And that was how we settled it... let them right of the hook for the violation and in fact endorsed it's continuation!

And wrapped the "minutes of understanding" in with the AIP. Sneaky ACPA bullshit yet again. Same with the 200ish surplus back to active. Carrots to pass a shit AIP with shit reserve RAP rules and shit everything. Good job ACPA.

What did we get?

A 1 year 900 hour guarantee for people on property not on fixed pay that will be declared null when the COV-MOA gets extended. Meanwhile the regional guys are all recalled and flying 90 hour months... Should be us recalling and flying 80 hour months in the summer

We're so good are helping the company that they all give themselves congratulatory bonuses! Time to help ourselves for a change. Not-one-more-inch-ever from me.

%10000

300 hour Jazz CRJ FOs right out of Seneca are currently flying AC passengers around to major USA hubs, while six hundred 3000-4000-5000+ hour pilots with a decade or more of flying experience are sitting at home with their thumbs up their ass wondering who they've been paying dues to, and for what.


Ps, I hold no ill will towards any Jazz pilot. You guys are just doing your jobs.

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

ACPALeaks is upset that ACPA hasn't represent him the way he wants to be represented.

While he has his days of clarity, some days he just bitches and moans and spews exaggerated BS.

[acpaleaks]

ACPALeaks is upset that ACPA hasn't represent him the way he wants to be represented.

You're damn right I am. In fact according to ACPA they don't represent us at all anymore. And it's not just me, there are a lot of pilots at AC right now angry with our representatives. And not just furloughed pilots either.

It's easy to judge from the outside but if you were in mine and 599 other pilots shoes right now you'd also be pissed off. I guarantee it. We sit here while our flying is being scoped away, pay cuts voted in, watching our union reps pretend we don't exist while they list for and fly overtime. Hell even the scope chair is pushing 100 hours this month.

[altiplano]

ACPALeaks is upset that ACPA hasn't represent him the way he wants to be represented.

While he has his days of clarity, some days he just bitches and moans and spews exaggerated BS.

And he should be.

I think you should butt out of the issues of another Union at a company you have stated that you have no interest in being a part of though... go float a boat or something...

[notwhoyouthinkIam]

I think you should butt out of the issues of another Union at a company you have stated that you have no interest in being a part of though... go float a boat or something...

What one union does affects all of us. When AC cuts their pilots pay, Air Transat, Sunwing, WestJet, Porter, Flair, and whoever else I'm missing uses it to justify why they should cut their pilot's pay too.

That doesn't negate the fact that all that ACPALeaks does is bitch and complain on the Jazz and Flair sub-forums.

If you don't like what I'm saying, you don't need to engage with me. That's your choice.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

ACPALeaks is upset that ACPA hasn't represent him the way he wants to be represented.

You're damn right I am. In fact according to ACPA they don't represent us at all anymore. And it's not just me, there are a lot of pilots at AC right now angry with our representatives. And not just furloughed pilots either.

It's easy to judge from the outside but if you were in mine and 599 other pilots shoes right now you'd also be pissed off. I guarantee it. We sit here while our flying is being scoped away, pay cuts voted in, watching our union reps pretend we don't exist while they list for and fly overtime. Hell even the scope chair is pushing 100 hours this month.

As one of the 600 I couldn't agree more. I hope for every single person who has been affected by the incompetant decisions that have been made by our association, that they never forget how they were treated during these times. Once we are back on property we all need to take part of every single election and vote accordingly. The company/union better realize they are breeding a toxic and divisive work environment.

I plan to take care of myself once back online. I will never go above and beyond ever again until I feel I have been compensated for the way we were treated this last 1.5 years. That means using my sick time, calling in fatigued, and working to the letter of the contract. PERIOD.

No freebies will ever come from me again.

[Hangry]

What one union does affects all of us. When AC cuts their pilots pay, Air Transat, Sunwing, WestJet, Porter, Flair, and whoever else I'm missing uses it to justify why they should cut their pilot's pay too.

I’m convinced you don’t get paid to fly. There’s no way a Canadian commercial pilot could get a statement so wrong.

[acpaleaks]

What one union does affects all of us. When AC cuts their pilots pay, Air Transat, Sunwing, WestJet, Porter, Flair, and whoever else I'm missing uses it to justify why they should cut their pilot's pay too.

Sorry, what?

I made a post about the dismal Flair salary in the other subforum and you attacked me for being "angry"... hell yeah I'm angry. Angry that airlines pop up thinking they can just undercut all our wages and unfortunately pilots who jump at the chance to work there for the shiny metal and four stripes.

But here you say that what one union does, effects us all? Hey look something you and I agree on! ACPA sucks, and what they do ends up fucking other pilots at other airlines. That said we're still the "best" there is for pay and career potential, unfortunately.

If one day WestJet decides to give their pilots a 30% raise and a DB pension, and now AC is second fiddle I will be the first to say HELL YEAH! Because it means upward pressure, unlike Flair and Swoop (and Rouge, but that's a whole 'nother discussion) which put downward pressure on our wages and careers. Thankfully Jazz seems to have the right idea by going after Sky and GGN to get them certified under ALPA and then wrap them all together. Remove the bottom rungs, might not make an immediate change but Jazz ALPA has a longer game strategy. Whereas ACPA... "Strategy? What's a strategy?"

The more I read your posts, and the conflicting information and opinions the more I realize you're really just a troll. And a bad one at that.

[redbusdriver]

ACPALeaks is upset that ACPA hasn't represent him the way he wants to be represented.

You're damn right I am. In fact according to ACPA they don't represent us at all anymore. And it's not just me, there are a lot of pilots at AC right now angry with our representatives. And not just furloughed pilots either.

It's easy to judge from the outside but if you were in mine and 599 other pilots shoes right now you'd also be pissed off. I guarantee it. We sit here while our flying is being scoped away, pay cuts voted in, watching our union reps pretend we don't exist while they list for and fly overtime. Hell even the scope chair is pushing 100 hours this month.

As one of the 600 I couldn't agree more. I hope for every single person who has been affected by the incompetant decisions that have been made by our association, that they never forget how they were treated during these times. Once we are back on property we all need to take part of every single election and vote accordingly. The company/union better realize they are breeding a toxic and divisive work environment.

I plan to take care of myself once back online. I will never go above and beyond ever again until I feel I have been compensated for the way we were treated this last 1.5 years. That means using my sick time, calling in fatigued, and working to the letter of the contract. PERIOD.

No freebies will ever come from me again.

as one of the 600, i don't feel how this guy feels, nor would i create a toxic work environment for myself by doing the petty things, calling in sick when not, that's just asking the company to crack down on that behaviour. while i respect others view on acpa, it's the disgruntled few that are the most vocal on here. acpa has the majority support, and that majority recognize the hard work done by the volunteers.

[acpaleaks]

It's not the volunteers who are the issue. Sadly MM has ousted one of the best we had, and I'm sure more to follow.

[RightPlaceWrongTime]

You're damn right I am. In fact according to ACPA they don't represent us at all anymore. And it's not just me, there are a lot of pilots at AC right now angry with our representatives. And not just furloughed pilots either.

It's easy to judge from the outside but if you were in mine and 599 other pilots shoes right now you'd also be pissed off. I guarantee it. We sit here while our flying is being scoped away, pay cuts voted in, watching our union reps pretend we don't exist while they list for and fly overtime. Hell even the scope chair is pushing 100 hours this month.

As one of the 600 I couldn't agree more. I hope for every single person who has been affected by the incompetant decisions that have been made by our association, that they never forget how they were treated during these times. Once we are back on property we all need to take part of every single election and vote accordingly. The company/union better realize they are breeding a toxic and divisive work environment.

I plan to take care of myself once back online. I will never go above and beyond ever again until I feel I have been compensated for the way we were treated this last 1.5 years. That means using my sick time, calling in fatigued, and working to the letter of the contract. PERIOD.

No freebies will ever come from me again.

as one of the 600, i don't feel how this guy feels, nor would i create a toxic work environment for myself by doing the petty things, calling in sick when not, that's just asking the company to crack down on that behaviour. while i respect others view on acpa, it's the disgruntled few that are the most vocal on here. acpa has the majority support, and that majority recognize the hard work done by the volunteers.

Would you consider working OT as an elected union rep petty after taking a salary top up throughout the whole pandemic while the membership took reduced blocks? How about forcing a concessionary cargo deal down our throats under the premise we aren't a door to door delivery service like ups or fedex...when in reality that was the plan all along (RIVO). How about our managers taking bonuses while our very own pilots are losing EI benefits because we were too expensive to be eligible for CEWS while every other pilot group managed to get it. What is petty these days? All I'm saying is that I will not be busting my hump for a company that doesn't give a $hiT about me. You suit yourself.