Negotiations

[rudder]

What about non-taxable compensation? We should see a 10% increase on per-diems minimum, and a 50% plus of the lolop refund. Helps everybody across the board, and the government doesn’t have to nick at those.

10% of top CA rate is approx $14k/yr. After tax - $7k.

Increasing LOLOP from 30% to 50% is approx $6000/yr increase in take home pay for CA family coverage.

Being creative will be a requirement of the discussions. Having said that, the CA tenure scale still needs to be compressed. And if Jazz is paying what pilots can make flying King Airs on medivac (or less), nothing will change in the application demographic.

[truedude]

What about non-taxable compensation? We should see a 10% increase on per-diems minimum, and a 50% plus of the lolop refund. Helps everybody across the board, and the government doesn’t have to nick at those.

10% of top CA rate is approx $14k/yr. After tax - $7k.

Increasing LOLOP from 30% to 50% is approx $6000/yr increase in take home pay for CA family coverage.

Being creative will be a requirement of the discussions. Having said that, the CA tenure scale still needs to be compressed. And if Jazz is paying what pilots can make flying King Airs on medivac (or less), nothing will change in the application demographic.

This is the big one, isn't it. There is a lot of things the company can do to put more money in the pockets of those that are here, but Jazz won't attract people unless the posted pay is greater than where they already are; or something is offered that their current job doesn't. But given the high cost of living, and the different priorities of younger individuals these days, money will be required to attract, and retain new people. And it won't be accomplished if Jazz is going to approach this and try to do the bare minimum.

The solution is easy, money! And lots of it. But 40 years of beating down pilots and the profession, it will be difficult for management to understand we are undergoing a paradigm shift. And management everywhere will have to acknowledge that pilots will expect to be compensated in a way that reflects the new reality.

[GIVCE!]

Devils advocate here…
Would it not just be cheaper and easier(from a business case) for AC to just buyout Jazz from Chorus? Then they could grab the aircraft and the staff and the current cheaper rates and, apparently broken, contract rates currently at AC. The pilots from Jazz would be forced to quit or accept whatever was given and then form some part of the list at AC, however that would work(most likely BOTL).

If AC management affects this change prior to any successful uplifts in pay/WAWCON or improved flow agreements negotiated by either the Jazz MEC (currently in talks with the company) or the impending discussion the ACPA MEC will be having come December or early ‘23 then surely they would drive a stake in the heart of any successful ‘unity’ discussions which could potentially arise between ACPA/Jazz/ALPA, much like just happened at Delta/Endevor?

If past performance dictates the play list then you gotta think AC management is already scheming ways to break this potential ‘unification’ of any and all pilot groups for their explicit financial benefit, no?

Just mussing out loud with a negative tome so apologize if it is a little dark. I, however, put nothing past the capabilities of Air Canada/Chorus BOD or Management.
G

[truedude]

Devils advocate here…
Would it not just be cheaper and easier(from a business case) for AC to just buyout Jazz from Chorus? Then they could grab the aircraft and the staff and the current cheaper rates and, apparently broken, contract rates currently at AC. The pilots from Jazz would be forced to quit or accept whatever was given and then form some part of the list at AC, however that would work(most likely BOTL).

If AC management affects this change prior to any successful uplifts in pay/WAWCON or improved flow agreements negotiated by either the Jazz MEC (currently in talks with the company) or the impending discussion the ACPA MEC will be having come December or early ‘23 then surely they would drive a stake in the heart of any successful ‘unity’ discussions which could potentially arise between ACPA/Jazz/ALPA, much like just happened at Delta/Endevor?

If past performance dictates the play list then you gotta think AC management is already scheming ways to break this potential ‘unification’ of any and all pilot groups for their explicit financial benefit, no?

Just mussing out loud with a negative tome so apologize if it is a little dark. I, however, put nothing past the capabilities of Air Canada/Chorus BOD or Management.
G

The end result is still the same. They need to find pilots to staff the airplanes, which they can't do at current rates. So they will still need to pay more.

If it was a true buyout/merger, the lists would get merged via arbitration, and our current contract would still be in force. So not only would it give ACPA pilots control of all flying and negotiating power going into next year, it would create one of the most bitter seniority mergers since Canadian/AC merger.

And they would still need to find pilots to fill seats.

[rudder]

Devils advocate here…
Would it not just be cheaper and easier(from a business case) for AC to just buyout Jazz from Chorus? Then they could grab the aircraft and the staff and the current cheaper rates and, apparently broken, contract rates currently at AC. The pilots from Jazz would be forced to quit or accept whatever was given and then form some part of the list at AC, however that would work(most likely BOTL).

If AC management affects this change prior to any successful uplifts in pay/WAWCON or improved flow agreements negotiated by either the Jazz MEC (currently in talks with the company) or the impending discussion the ACPA MEC will be having come December or early ‘23 then surely they would drive a stake in the heart of any successful ‘unity’ discussions which could potentially arise between ACPA/Jazz/ALPA, much like just happened at Delta/Endevor?

If past performance dictates the play list then you gotta think AC management is already scheming ways to break this potential ‘unification’ of any and all pilot groups for their explicit financial benefit, no?

Just mussing out loud with a negative tome so apologize if it is a little dark. I, however, put nothing past the capabilities of Air Canada/Chorus BOD or Management.
G

The end result is still the same. They need to find pilots to staff the airplanes, which they can't do at current rates. So they will still need to pay more.

If it was a true buyout/merger, the lists would get merged via arbitration, and our current contract would still be in force. So not only would it give ACPA pilots control of all flying and negotiating power going into next year, it would create one of the most bitter seniority mergers since Canadian/AC merger.

And they would still need to find pilots to fill seats.

AC could buy Jazz and perhaps effectively terminate the existing CPA, but CHR will still want the obligations for long term aircraft leases to AC to continue. This is the largest revenue stream that emanates from the CPA for CHR. AC can acquire Jazz and is not obliged to a merger.

There are provisions for ‘sale of a business’ and ‘successorship rights’ within the Canada Labour Code that would apply, as well as the applicable provisions of the AC/ACPA and Jazz/ALPA CBA’s.

This may well be on the radar screen. But it is not a carte blanche opportunity to tear up the ALPA CBA or to attempt to terminate the Jazz pilots and replace them with mainline, OTS, or another vendor.

Personally, I think that it is too complicated for the parties to contemplate.

[kiaszceski]

This may well be on the radar screen. But it is not a carte blanche opportunity to tear up the ALPA CBA or to attempt to terminate the Jazz pilots and replace them with mainline, OTS, or another vendor.

Hold on a sec, how would this work since both airlines are short of pilots? They can't just terminate Jazz pilots, can they?

[GIVCE!]

Well as has been said the goal here for the companies would be to staff all airframes as cheaply as possible while still maintaining some form of growth, barring a major recession next year. Scrapping the Jazz CBA through a purchase of same would be advantageous for AC as it gives immediate access to all pilots and would for some streamlining of operations which would lead to better margins, as just one benefit. As stated they would still be ‘short’ pilots based on current requirements for the ‘23 season and beyond. But all that could change, such like Westjets cutback and refocus on western ops, AC could do the same and therefore require fewer pilots. Again that is implied, currently, to be a massive change to their proposed growth plan stated in their recent MOA to the pilots. But things always change in aviation, as we are all too aware…

I just have this nagging feeling that these companies are up to something behind the scenes that will, as usual, be detrimental to us all as pilots in Canada with regards to WAWCON. It is their job to think 10 years out, twenty years out and we must, as a unified group, start to do the same. Hopefully we start to realize some leverage, as has been happing in the USA lately here in Canada, soon. Clocks are ticking….
G

[truedude]

You can't just toss out a collective agreement. If they buy jazz that agreement comes with us. If they merge it with mainline, then it is a seniority merger, along with at least a year before training and crews would be integrated. So nothing changes.

[QKZXKV]

You can't just toss out a collective agreement. If they buy jazz that agreement comes with us. If they merge it with mainline, then it is a seniority merger, along with at least a year before training and crews would be integrated. So nothing changes.

You can't toss out a Collective Agreement at all but you can the CPA which is where things would get muddy. There is no "Capacity Purchase" if AC owns the whole operation. Remember they re-purchased a minority stake back in 2019. Making it Air Canada Regional is not as farfetched as some see it.

[truedude]

Yes, but that flying still needs to be done, and the collective agreement will follow the pilots. So the problem remains the same, no matter who owns it.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Yes, but that flying still needs to be done, and the collective agreement will follow the pilots. So the problem remains the same, no matter who owns it.

You think the SKV agreement followed the pilots to Jazz? CBAs die when the company dies.

[truedude]

That company was being dissolved and flying transfered. But there are laws regarding the way that is done, which is why Sky pilots found themselves merged with DOH. AC is free to do the same. No body bought Sky Regional, which is different than the conversation of AC buying Jazz.

Also you can't replace Jazz capacity with any other company in Canada. So to sound like a broken record, it leaves AC with the same problem, finding staff to crew airplanes... which will still have a single solution, money.

[Loon-A-Tic]

That company was being dissolved and flying transfered. But there are laws regarding the way that is done, which is why Sky pilots found themselves merged with DOH. AC is free to do the same. No body bought Sky Regional, which is different than the conversation of AC buying Jazz.

Also you can't replace Jazz capacity with any other company in Canada. So to sound like a broken record, it leaves AC with the same problem, finding staff to crew airplanes... which will still have a single solution, money.

AC just converted 15 A220 options into firm positions so some of the flying might be going to those fins.

[negroni]

You can't just toss out a collective agreement. If they buy jazz that agreement comes with us. If they merge it with mainline, then it is a seniority merger, along with at least a year before training and crews would be integrated. So nothing changes.

Keep dreaming bucko

[negroni]

Yes, but that flying still needs to be done, and the collective agreement will follow the pilots. So the problem remains the same, no matter who owns it.

You think the SKV agreement followed the pilots to Jazz? CBAs die when the company dies.

That wasn't a merger.

[truedude]

You can't just toss out a collective agreement. If they buy jazz that agreement comes with us. If they merge it with mainline, then it is a seniority merger, along with at least a year before training and crews would be integrated. So nothing changes.

Keep dreaming bucko

I don't want anytbing to do with your mess at mainline. But if AC bought Jazz with the intention of having one group of pilots, then the lists merge. Good luck stopping that.

[negroni]

You can't just toss out a collective agreement. If they buy jazz that agreement comes with us. If they merge it with mainline, then it is a seniority merger, along with at least a year before training and crews would be integrated. So nothing changes.

Keep dreaming bucko

I don't want anytbing to do with your mess at mainline. But if AC bought Jazz with the intention of having one group of pilots, then the lists merge. Good luck stopping that.

You have clearly no clue.

Go read what they base mergers on. Two of the big things are career earnings and comparable fleet.

If any Jazz pilot thinks they're going to bring over 20 YOS and slide into a WB left seat I have a bridge to sell you.

[truedude]

When did I say it would be date of DOH. But it most certainly won't be bottom of the list. And it is you who have no clue... the AC CDN merger is a clear example. Not to mention ALPA has set a lot of DOH precidents in this country in the last decade. It won't be DOH, but won't be bottom of the list either.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Yes, but that flying still needs to be done, and the collective agreement will follow the pilots. So the problem remains the same, no matter who owns it.

You think the SKV agreement followed the pilots to Jazz? CBAs die when the company dies.

That wasn't a merger.

Maybe not…. But even when merging two CBAs into one, especially when there’s two different unions involved, does not mean a win. Often both member groups lose.

[machaltstar]

lmao. Seen this dream before, the regional tier two group that thinks they’re regional seniority entitles them to a free step into a tier one wide body captain job….. Why would air Canada want to buy Jazz? Why would AC buy back their fleet of old Embs? Having just acquired the 15 options to their 220 order. Have you seen what the AC domestic fleet will eventually be compose of and the total number of domestic aircraft? 60 220’s alone. The 220 will be eating the regional 175’s and super RJ’s for breakfast. It’s a monkey see monkey do world, and AC is in the process of copying the American carriers by bringing the longer legs (flying that was never really regional flying anyways) back in house, circa early 2000’s and the end of the DC9 era. Toronto to Houston/Raleigh/Memphis etc will all be back at AC and Jazz will become a Q400 operation. CPA will become a thing of the past. The only flying AC isn’t going to be doing or planning on doing is the type of flying suited to the Q400. The AC director of flight ops has said 6000 pilots by 2024, so where do we think those numbers of pilots will be coming from? AC isn’t concerned one bit about the 60% flow from Jazz. Who’s hampering who in this CPA agreement? Jazz can’t train enough because their pilots don’t have the licenses to upgrade to allow a 60% flow, or AC isn’t taking 60% because Jazz won’t allow it to happen? The CPA agreements days are number, one way or another. When Jazz eventually re sets and re scales to a domestic dash operation, all the surplus bottom pilots will get to be AC pilots one way or another.

[truedude]

lmao. Seen this dream before, the regional tier two group that thinks they’re regional seniority entitles them to a free step into a tier one wide body captain job….. Why would air Canada want to buy Jazz? Why would AC buy back their fleet of old Embs? Having just acquired the 15 options to their 220 order. Have you seen what the AC domestic fleet will eventually be compose of and the total number of domestic aircraft? 60 220’s alone. The 220 will be eating the regional 175’s and super RJ’s for breakfast. It’s a monkey see monkey do world, and AC is in the process of copying the American carriers by bringing the longer legs (flying that was never really regional flying anyways) back in house, circa early 2000’s and the end of the DC9 era. Toronto to Houston/Raleigh/Memphis etc will all be back at AC and Jazz will become a Q400 operation. CPA will become a thing of the past. The only flying AC isn’t going to be doing or planning on doing is the type of flying suited to the Q400. The AC director of flight ops has said 6000 pilots by 2024, so where do we think those numbers of pilots will be coming from? AC isn’t concerned one bit about the 60% flow from Jazz. Who’s hampering who in this CPA agreement? Jazz can’t train enough because their pilots don’t have the licenses to upgrade to allow a 60% flow, or AC isn’t taking 60% because Jazz won’t allow it to happen? The CPA agreements days are number, one way or another. When Jazz eventually re sets and re scales to a domestic dash operation, all the surplus bottom pilots will get to be AC pilots one way or another.

Maybe go back and read what the conversation was initially about. It was about AC buying Jazz as a work around for paying more to Jazz pilots, or an attempt to simply toss our collective agreement. Doesn't work like that. All the seniority conversation was a result of that.

The CPA is in place until 2035. It isn't going anywhere.

And it is AC that won't allow our pilots to leave. And we can't upgrade pilots, becauae anyone with time doesn't want to come here for what we pay. If we are going to end up paying more, I guarantee you that that money isn't coming from Chorus.

In the end, there isn't enough pilots in Canada to fly the airplanes you mentioned above, so good luck finding crews to fly them. Business plans change yearly. I noticed your bid suddenly shows 300 less vaccines.... I guess a business plan changed.

[Inverted2]

I don’t think AC will be “buying Jazz” or “merging lists” but if something like that were to happen there are labour laws that have to be respected and lawyers that will decide it. Not a bunch of self entitled pilots on a forum.

No senior Jazz pilot will be expecting a wide body captain spot and no 30 year 25000 hr Jazz pilot will be bottom of the list either.

[truedude]

I don’t think AC will be “buying Jazz” or “merging lists” but if something like that were to happen there are labour laws that have to be respected and lawyers that will decide it. Not a bunch of self entitled pilots on a forum.

No senior Jazz pilot will be expecting a wide body captain spot and no 30 year 25000 hr Jazz pilot will be bottom of the list either.

Pretty much exactly what I was trying to say.

[rudder]

lmao. Seen this dream before, the regional tier two group that thinks they’re regional seniority entitles them to a free step into a tier one wide body captain job….. Why would air Canada want to buy Jazz? Why would AC buy back their fleet of old Embs? Having just acquired the 15 options to their 220 order. Have you seen what the AC domestic fleet will eventually be compose of and the total number of domestic aircraft? 60 220’s alone. The 220 will be eating the regional 175’s and super RJ’s for breakfast. It’s a monkey see monkey do world, and AC is in the process of copying the American carriers by bringing the longer legs (flying that was never really regional flying anyways) back in house, circa early 2000’s and the end of the DC9 era. Toronto to Houston/Raleigh/Memphis etc will all be back at AC and Jazz will become a Q400 operation. CPA will become a thing of the past. The only flying AC isn’t going to be doing or planning on doing is the type of flying suited to the Q400. The AC director of flight ops has said 6000 pilots by 2024, so where do we think those numbers of pilots will be coming from? AC isn’t concerned one bit about the 60% flow from Jazz. Who’s hampering who in this CPA agreement? Jazz can’t train enough because their pilots don’t have the licenses to upgrade to allow a 60% flow, or AC isn’t taking 60% because Jazz won’t allow it to happen? The CPA agreements days are number, one way or another. When Jazz eventually re sets and re scales to a domestic dash operation, all the surplus bottom pilots will get to be AC pilots one way or another.

The AC North American route model is morphing back to where it was pre-COVID.

AC is upguaging on some routes from 76 seat Express jets to NB. This occurs most often on routes with a meaningful J capacity demand. On some routes AC is replacing domestic capacity with Rouge and reducing frequency.

CASM is lower on larger gauge equipment. So if the timetable and connection banks can handle reduced frequency, then that becomes the preferred option.

Replacement will happen over time and subject to mainline/Rouge fleet expansion. There is also a demand seasonality on some routes which might see flip flopping back and forth between mainline and Express.

Regardless, the trend is not favourable to Express and may be a precursor to post-2025.

[kiaszceski]

Regardless, the trend is not favourable to Express and may be a precursor to post-2025.

Do you mean Express might just disappear at some point?
With the new A220 order being delivered in 2026 that won't be surprising but what would happen to Jazz if they can't flow pilots because they can't fill the classes?