ALPA signing new agreements with training bonds

[goldeneagle]

Prime +2%? So I’m getting a 9.2% return? How many type ratings can I apply for at Wasaya?

Prime +2 may not look so good if you realize, it means you have to work there for 2 years.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Prime +2%? So I’m getting a 9.2% return? How many type ratings can I apply for at Wasaya?

Prime +2 may not look so good if you realize, it means you have to work there for 2 years.

Pretty sure the caravan / pc12 is only one year. For near 10% return on my money, id choose option 1 versus option 3 if I had the cash and planned on staying one simple year to get valuable experience.

[Janitroll]

Prime +2%? So I’m getting a 9.2% return? How many type ratings can I apply for at Wasaya?

Prime +2 may not look so good if you realize, it means you have to work there for 2 years.

Pretty sure the caravan / pc12 is only one year. For near 10% return on my money, id choose option 1 versus option 3 if I had the cash and planned on staying one simple year to get valuable experience.

Are you suggesting new CPL pilots who would fly for Wasaya have $10000 in cash to hand to Wasaya?

borrowed money & have to pay interest on at higher rate


Training agreements can't be sold as investment income.

Bonds prevent you from moving to a higher paying job. You can wait a year at Wasaya for your extra $1000, or move to a job that pays $1000 - $2000 extra every month.

[up on one]

You are very right! Of course, the typical cpl would not have the resources to outright consider this an investment and this is where my perspective changes. These Cpls are not “waiting” around at Wasaya. They have begun the application process as an investment. That new cpl or “experienced” 1000 hr instructor does not have the skill set to make it to the NHL yet or even the tryouts.

Now let’s take this back to AlPa. I’m not very familiar of how unions work so correct if I’m wrong. Do they not speak with the company to make sure they are on the same page from an operating cost point of view so they understand what is an appropriate starting point to negotiate?

Wasaya is not a charity. They are a profitable business and like every business they attempt to manage costs to protect the margin. The 1000 hr instructor has an easier time in training but there is still a cost associated with it. Everyone knows that the second the nhl calls that pilot is leaving pickle lake or (insert beautiful northern housing town). Training a new pilot is hard on all resources not just financially. It increases risk and is a huge burden on time. If I was a business owner I would 100% implement a bond (no money up front) to protect the operation as well as the clients that rely on the services provided.

How many hours do they fly a year? You’re going up north because you don’t have the experience needed. I highly doubt anyone could get a 10,000-20,000 a year raise with just a new type rating, and let’s be honest, leaving before a year, the new type rating is all that has been added to the overall experience.

Rant over, next stop, heading straight to cae or flight safety and complain that they are actually charging me for type ratings.

[CaptDukeNukem]

How many hours do they fly a year? You’re going up north because you don’t have the experience needed. I highly doubt anyone could get a 10,000-20,000 a year raise with just a new type rating, and let’s be honest, leaving before a year, the new type rating is all that has been added to the overall experience.

Exactly my point. No one with 250 hrs is leaving within 3 months for a job that gives $20000 more. You’re at this company to get experience. Do a year. Frankly, the experience and knowledge you’ll get is invaluable. If you have the coin (maybe from bank of mom and dad) to collect 10% at the same time, then why not.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Prime +2 may not look so good if you realize, it means you have to work there for 2 years.

Pretty sure the caravan / pc12 is only one year. For near 10% return on my money, id choose option 1 versus option 3 if I had the cash and planned on staying one simple year to get valuable experience.

Are you suggesting new CPL pilots who would fly for Wasaya have $10000 in cash to hand to Wasaya?

borrowed money & have to pay interest on at higher rate


Training agreements can't be sold as investment income.

Bonds prevent you from moving to a higher paying job. You can wait a year at Wasaya for your extra $1000, or move to a job that pays $1000 - $2000 extra every month.

Not at all. That’s why they offer 3 options. If you can’t sign over a cheque for that price, then it’s fine.
If you have to the means to make 10% in a year, then yes it can absolutely be an investment

[Janitroll]

Will ALPA be supporting bonds at Pivot Air?

[arthurt]

Will ALPA be supporting bonds at Pivot Air?

There is no bound at Pivot

[Pratt X 3]

Will ALPA be supporting bonds at Pivot Air?

There is no bound at Pivot

No tanning agreement or employment contact of any kind either!
IYKYK!

[Janitroll]

ALPA once wrote, yet in recent years ALPA national signs CBA allowing training bonds

Inuit & Keewatin negotiating - will ALPA continue to sign off CBA with bonds like 2023?

October 31, 2005
Submission to the Federal Labour Standards Review Commission by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) Respecting proposed amendments to the Canada Labour Code, Part III

Summary
The Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) raises two legislative gaps particularly affecting pilots:

Protection against training bonds and particularly against training bonds whose terms are overreaching and exploitative, and
Hours of work amendments that are tailored to societal norms and to the aviation industry.
ALPA recommends

That training bonds be prohibited. Alternatively, if training bonds are to be permitted, that they be subject to limitations reflecting only legitimate needs of the employer, and providing employee relief in the event of employer bankruptcy. To this end, ALPA puts forward recommendations already endorsed by the International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations.
That Labour Canada confers with aviation industry stakeholders to develop maximum hours of work protections as it has done for other transportation sectors.
Background/Implications
ALPA is a trade union representing the interests of pilots. ALPA represents over 2,000 pilots employed by five carriers in Canada. Internationally, ALPA represents 64,000 pilots at 41 airlines in the U.S. and Canada, and is a member of the International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA). ALPA represents pilots in their employment relations, and is a key player in articulating policy concerns arising from this stewardship.

ALPA is concerned that the employment relationship and terms and conditions of employment embody public policy representing minimum standards, safety, and pilot professionalism.

In this brief, ALPA argues that the Canada Labour Code, Part III, lacks appropriate mechanisms to regulate and protect pilots in two key areas:

Training bonds
Hours of work
ALPA is further concerned that the absence of such protections undermines larger public policy goals set out in all three parts of the Canada Labour Code (free and effective rights to be represented by a trade union, minimum standards, and safety), and in the Canadian Aviation Regulations.

Issues
Training Bonds
1. The 2004 bankruptcy of JetsGo left large numbers of its pilots personally responsible for the payment of “training bonds” effectively imposed on them as a condition of employment and advancement.

2. “Training bonds” are performance bonds which commit pilots to forfeit a sum money—usually substantial--alleged to represent the cost of their training, where the pilot ceases to be employed for a minimum period of time.

3. Training bonds are common in Canada among smaller carriers and carriers whose employees lack union representation. They are a clear example of unequal terms of employment imposed on the most vulnerable members of the profession: typically young pilots, new hires, and those without representation.

4. The amounts at issue can be stunningly huge, the equivalent of a small mortgage. Media reports indicate that in the case of JetsGo, substantial numbers of pilots found themselves liable for sums of $30,000 or more. This at a time when they were thrown out of work.

5. The frank purpose of training bonds is coercion against employment mobility. Pilots subject to training bonds escape forfeiture only where they remain employed for a minimum period of time, often years. In effect, they create a form of indentured service.

6. Training bonds are typically required by employers at a time when the pilot is most vulnerable: young, inexperienced, and new in the profession. They are entered into in conditions in which bargaining power is most unequal: at the pre-employment phase as a condition of hire, and in companies whose employees lack effective representation.

7. The training bond arrangement typically requires a prospective new-hire to put up a sum of money subject to full or partial repayment where employment does not last a minimum period of time. Usually, this is in the form of a bank loan arranged by the employer prior to and as a condition of employment. Typically, the employer will make payments on the bond for its duration. However, where the pilot’s employment ends prior to the time-frame of the bond, he or she is individually liable to the bank for the balance.

8. The terms of training bonds are unilaterally set as a condition of hire. Because they are not negotiated, the terms are usually one-sided and often go beyond the legitimate needs and interests of employers. For example, the sums and duration of the bond may not reflect the employer’s actual training expenditure. And they may offload all of the risk of employment interruption onto the pilot, so that he or she remains liable even where wrongfully dismissed, laid off, or terminated as the consequence of a bankruptcy.

9. The existence of training bonds further tilts the employment relationship in the employer’s favour for their duration. Pilots under threat of forfeiture are less likely to take risks associated with incurring employer displeasure. They may be less likely to hold employers accountable for safety, putting the travelling public at risk. They may feel constrained in their free choice to seek union representation. In both these ways, training bonds generate effects contrary to the public interest.

10. It is generally understood that employees unhappy with their terms and conditions of employment have two options: “exit” (seeking alternate employment with more favourable terms) or “voice” (seeking mechanisms to articulate their interests, such as union representation). Effectively, pilots subject to training bonds have neither the real option of “exit” or “voice”.

11. Effectively, training bonds undermine the interests articulated in the Canada Labour Code, Part III. They typically contain terms which no employee would willingly enter into. Further, they perpetuate this dynamic for the duration of the bond.

12. Training bonds undermine the interests articulated in the Canada Labour Code, Part II: the fundamental freedom to seek representation by a trade union.

13. Finally, training bonds represent a check on the exercise of professional rights and obligations associated with safety under the Canadian Aviation Regulations.

14. ALPA argues that employers could realize the same goal of employment longevity through alternate strategies more in tune with the public interest: terms and conditions of employment (including seniority protections) which reward and encourage long service.

15. ALPA is opposed to training bonds for the reasons set out above. Our primary recommendation is that training bonds should be legislatively prohibited.

16. In the alternative, where employees or unions are compelled to negotiate training bonds with employers, the following protections should be applicable.

Any training bond

should apply only to initial type conversion of new entry pilots not already licensed on type;
should not exceed the actual direct cost incurred by the employer, proof of which should be provided by the employer;
should be amortized over a period of not more than three years with the bond reducing to zero at the end of the agreed period, which period should commence at the beginning of training;
should not be payable by a pilot who is furloughed, retrenched (retrenchment to include transfer to another company at the behest of the employer as part of any retrenchment or restructuring process and/or any operational reasons including liquidation), dismissed from the company or retired from the company, whether it be normal retirement or retirement on medical grounds;
where it becomes payable, should be paid over a negotiated period with interest, where applicable, not exceeding prime lending rate, and should, if possible, be paid in a tax efficient manner;
should be cancelled and regarded as null and void in the event of the company breaching the terms and conditions of employment.

[Janitroll]

5. The frank purpose of training bonds is coercion against employment mobility. Pilots subject to training bonds escape forfeiture only where they remain employed for a minimum period of time, often years. In effect, they create a form of indentured service.

Indentured service & worse working conditions where bonds exist

[HFNav]

What's the bond at KF Aerospace for CV580/ATR? Previously $20,000

Are they only paying $95,000/year to captain out of YVR?

First year PC12 captain pays $122,000

[bobcaygeon]

5. The frank purpose of training bonds is coercion against employment mobility. Pilots subject to training bonds escape forfeiture only where they remain employed for a minimum period of time, often years. In effect, they create a form of indentured service.

Indentured service & worse working conditions where bonds exist

Indentured service? It's an employee contract. Executives/Directors, employees sign them all the time. Athletes sign them all the time too. Sport's drafts give players very limited options and they aren't even under contract yet. Lindros pouted and never played for the Nordiques but he couldn't play in the NHL for another team.

[gqra]

5. The frank purpose of training bonds is coercion against employment mobility. Pilots subject to training bonds escape forfeiture only where they remain employed for a minimum period of time, often years. In effect, they create a form of indentured service.

Indentured service & worse working conditions where bonds exist

Indentured service? It's an employee contract. Executives/Directors, employees sign them all the time. Athletes sign them all the time too. Sport's drafts give players very limited options and they aren't even under contract yet. Lindros pouted and never played for the Nordiques but he couldn't play in the NHL for another team.

I think the idea is that, if something is bad, we should change it.

[cdnavater]

5. The frank purpose of training bonds is coercion against employment mobility. Pilots subject to training bonds escape forfeiture only where they remain employed for a minimum period of time, often years. In effect, they create a form of indentured service.

Indentured service & worse working conditions where bonds exist

Indentured service? It's an employee contract. Executives/Directors, employees sign them all the time. Athletes sign them all the time too. Sport's drafts give players very limited options and they aren't even under contract yet. Lindros pouted and never played for the Nordiques but he couldn't play in the NHL for another team.

Well, it’s pretty hard to argue with stupid but I’ll try, athletes really? What airline that has a bond signs pilots to multi year multi million dollar contracts? As for the draft restrictions, you are talking about rare circumstances where a player is drafted and doesn’t want to play for that team, they still don’t owe the team anything, what a completely ridiculous comparison!
Executives DO NOT sign bonds, they sign contracts that spell out how much they will get should the company decide to part ways with them, their contracts typically include non compete clauses commensurate with the amount of golden handcuff amount.
We are talking about companies that charge for the company training and if they abuse you, you can’t leave without owning money, pretty well sums up indentured servants!

[digits_]

5. The frank purpose of training bonds is coercion against employment mobility. Pilots subject to training bonds escape forfeiture only where they remain employed for a minimum period of time, often years. In effect, they create a form of indentured service.

Indentured service & worse working conditions where bonds exist

Indentured service? It's an employee contract. Executives/Directors, employees sign them all the time. Athletes sign them all the time too. Sport's drafts give players very limited options and they aren't even under contract yet. Lindros pouted and never played for the Nordiques but he couldn't play in the NHL for another team.

Well, it’s pretty hard to argue with stupid but I’ll try, athletes really? What airline that has a bond signs pilots to multi year multi million dollar contracts? As for the draft restrictions, you are talking about rare circumstances where a player is drafted and doesn’t want to play for that team, they still don’t owe the team anything, what a completely ridiculous comparison!
Executives DO NOT sign bonds, they sign contracts that spell out how much they will get should the company decide to part ways with them, their contracts typically include non compete clauses commensurate with the amount of golden handcuff amount.
We are talking about companies that charge for the company training and if they abuse you, you can’t leave without owning money, pretty well sums up indentured servants!

Agreed! That last part is the crucial difference.

All the other contracts stipulate duties from both parties. Bonds do not. You get some vague working condition descriptions that the employer will take advantage off. And when you call them out on their misrepresentation, you've got the option to leave, but you'll have to pay. That's the imbalance that makes it unfair.

It's slightly better organized in a union environment, but even then LOUs can be signed changing working conditions that you'll just have to accept.

[737Drver]

All you shills supporting training bonds shouldn't even be allowed to be represented by a union. You are a detriment to the profession. Pilots literally would be better off if you weren't involved in this line of work.

Think about that for a sec. You're actual existence in a cockpit is a liability to us all...