Jazz merging with Air Canada?

[Bede]

cdnaviator's posts raise a good point.

The most important section in a CA is scope protection. If you have no scope, you have nothing. Do whatever you must to secure scope.

[cdnavater]

I cannot buy in to this ‘seniority list 7300’ claim. There is no empirical evidence (aircraft orders/route announcements/etc) that AC is planning a fleet that requires 7300 pilots.

Of course everything subject to change, but right now that wouldn’t even be on the horizon.

Hypothetically, if the corporation is thinking integration of Jazz and aircraft orders, the list could end up at 7300, hypothetically of course.

My question is, why is it included in the union rally presentation, these numbers benefit the company with many pilots looking at that thinking the upgrade train is going to keep running?

[cdnavater]

cdnaviator's posts raise a good point.

The most important section in a CA is scope protection. If you have no scope, you have nothing. Do whatever you must to secure scope.

I should stop posting hypothetical situations I suppose, they have scope on most things, I would hate the fear of Jazz integration to be the cause of giving up a single item!
For what it’s worth, there were AC Pilots against Claude speaking at the rally, the fear of Jazz pilots is real for many, I don’t blame them, there is plenty of history to contend with and the companies thrive on fear.
I would honestly be completely shocked if there wasn’t some specific language dealing with a Jazz purchase, I’m sure it has come up in the surveys !

[rudder]

cdnaviator's posts raise a good point.

The most important section in a CA is scope protection. If you have no scope, you have nothing. Do whatever you must to secure scope.

I should stop posting hypothetical situations I suppose, they have scope on most things, I would hate the fear of Jazz integration to be the cause of giving up a single item!
For what it’s worth, there were AC Pilots against Claude speaking at the rally, the fear of Jazz pilots is real for many, I don’t blame them, there is plenty of history to contend with and the companies thrive on fear.
I would honestly be completely shocked if there wasn’t some specific language dealing with a Jazz purchase, I’m sure it has come up in the surveys !

There is specific language in Section 1 of the current AC CBA.

It SPECIFICALLY states that the purchase of a Tier II carrier (Jazz) will NOT trigger a merger.

[cdnavater]

cdnaviator's posts raise a good point.

The most important section in a CA is scope protection. If you have no scope, you have nothing. Do whatever you must to secure scope.

I should stop posting hypothetical situations I suppose, they have scope on most things, I would hate the fear of Jazz integration to be the cause of giving up a single item!
For what it’s worth, there were AC Pilots against Claude speaking at the rally, the fear of Jazz pilots is real for many, I don’t blame them, there is plenty of history to contend with and the companies thrive on fear.
I would honestly be completely shocked if there wasn’t some specific language dealing with a Jazz purchase, I’m sure it has come up in the surveys !

There is specific language in Section 1 of the current AC CBA.

It SPECIFICALLY states that the purchase of a Tier II carrier (Jazz) will NOT trigger a merger.

No need to yell, I can read, back to my question then, why would the union put information to the masses about this pilot growth?
I don’t see how this benefits the pilot group to spread what seems to be misinformation unless they have some inside knowledge that makes this a realistic number!

[truedude]

cdnaviator's posts raise a good point.

The most important section in a CA is scope protection. If you have no scope, you have nothing. Do whatever you must to secure scope.

I should stop posting hypothetical situations I suppose, they have scope on most things, I would hate the fear of Jazz integration to be the cause of giving up a single item!
For what it’s worth, there were AC Pilots against Claude speaking at the rally, the fear of Jazz pilots is real for many, I don’t blame them, there is plenty of history to contend with and the companies thrive on fear.
I would honestly be completely shocked if there wasn’t some specific language dealing with a Jazz purchase, I’m sure it has come up in the surveys !

There is specific language in Section 1 of the current AC CBA.

It SPECIFICALLY states that the purchase of a Tier II carrier (Jazz) will NOT trigger a merger.

We have all seen how much respect AC has for contracts and signed agreements.

[cdnavater]

cdnaviator's posts raise a good point.

The most important section in a CA is scope protection. If you have no scope, you have nothing. Do whatever you must to secure scope.

I should stop posting hypothetical situations I suppose, they have scope on most things, I would hate the fear of Jazz integration to be the cause of giving up a single item!
For what it’s worth, there were AC Pilots against Claude speaking at the rally, the fear of Jazz pilots is real for many, I don’t blame them, there is plenty of history to contend with and the companies thrive on fear.
I would honestly be completely shocked if there wasn’t some specific language dealing with a Jazz purchase, I’m sure it has come up in the surveys !

There is specific language in Section 1 of the current AC CBA.

It SPECIFICALLY states that the purchase of a Tier II carrier (Jazz) will NOT trigger a merger.

I have looked through the most recent CBA I can find, Sept 2020-Sept 2023, I cannot find this specific language regarding purchasing a Tier 2. Can you specify which paragraph and which CBA you are using to get this information.

1.05 Merger or Change of Control On each occasion that the Company and/or its Successors or Affiliates are involved in a merger or in the event of a Change of Control of the Company, the following will apply:

1.05.10
If Air Canada is involved in a merger or acquisition and the pilots of the merged or acquired carrier are consolidated with Air Canada’s Pilots, then any aircraft of the merged carrier that are added to the mainline fleet shall not count as Mainline Baseline WJA, Mainline Baseline NJA, Mainline Growth WJA, Mainline Growth NJA, or for the Growth Ratios as defined in L74.01.

[altiplano]

For what it’s worth, there were AC Pilots against Claude speaking at the rally, the fear of Jazz pilots is real for many,

That's not true. We welcome the support. If there were a couple outliers with feelings about it, it certainly wasn't made an issue beyond that. ACA, JZA, WJA reps have all worked together through this. The times for divisions and bullshit because of where you work are over.

I just wish we didn't have to listen to his speech twice, if we had to do the French, just subtitle it in English for me and I'm good. It kind of killed some momentum when other than in YUL most of the guys didn't know what he was talking about.

[rudder]

I should stop posting hypothetical situations I suppose, they have scope on most things, I would hate the fear of Jazz integration to be the cause of giving up a single item!
For what it’s worth, there were AC Pilots against Claude speaking at the rally, the fear of Jazz pilots is real for many, I don’t blame them, there is plenty of history to contend with and the companies thrive on fear.
I would honestly be completely shocked if there wasn’t some specific language dealing with a Jazz purchase, I’m sure it has come up in the surveys !

There is specific language in Section 1 of the current AC CBA.

It SPECIFICALLY states that the purchase of a Tier II carrier (Jazz) will NOT trigger a merger.

I have looked through the most recent CBA I can find, Sept 2020-Sept 2023, I cannot find this specific language regarding purchasing a Tier 2. Can you specify which paragraph and which CBA you are using to get this information.

1.05 Merger or Change of Control On each occasion that the Company and/or its Successors or Affiliates are involved in a merger or in the event of a Change of Control of the Company, the following will apply:

1.05.10
If Air Canada is involved in a merger or acquisition and the pilots of the merged or acquired carrier are consolidated with Air Canada’s Pilots, then any aircraft of the merged carrier that are added to the mainline fleet shall not count as Mainline Baseline WJA, Mainline Baseline NJA, Mainline Growth WJA, Mainline Growth NJA, or for the Growth Ratios as defined in L74.01.

Sorry, language from Article 1 not as specific as I stated. However, achieves the same purpose.

No merger with Jazz absent AC pilot support.

1.07 Single Employer Obligations / Separate Entities

Air Canada will not initiate or support any common employer application before the Canada Industrial Relations Board with respect to another group of Pilots unless such application is supported by ACPA.

[cdnavater]

For what it’s worth, there were AC Pilots against Claude speaking at the rally, the fear of Jazz pilots is real for many,

That's not true. We welcome the support. If there were a couple outliers with feelings about it, it certainly wasn't made an issue beyond that. ACA, JZA, WJA reps have all worked together through this. The times for divisions and bullshit because of where you work are over.

I just wish we didn't have to listen to his speech twice, if we had to do the French, just subtitle it in English for me and I'm good. It kind of killed some momentum when other than in YUL most of the guys didn't know what he was talking about.

I agree on both, I don’t know how many, it was an AC pilot who told me “some” were opposed to him speaking. I thought the English version of his speech was great, lol.

[Man_in_the_sky]

For what it’s worth, there were AC Pilots against Claude speaking at the rally, the fear of Jazz pilots is real for many,

That's not true. We welcome the support. If there were a couple outliers with feelings about it, it certainly wasn't made an issue beyond that. ACA, JZA, WJA reps have all worked together through this. The times for divisions and bullshit because of where you work are over.

I just wish we didn't have to listen to his speech twice, if we had to do the French, just subtitle it in English for me and I'm good. It kind of killed some momentum when other than in YUL most of the guys didn't know what he was talking about.

Having 1 speaker do his speech in french out of 4
Is not an issue…
French is one of the two official language and also the “french” base was happy to have him
Speak in french!

[GIVCE!]

ACPA is dead.

[altiplano]

For what it’s worth, there were AC Pilots against Claude speaking at the rally, the fear of Jazz pilots is real for many,

That's not true. We welcome the support. If there were a couple outliers with feelings about it, it certainly wasn't made an issue beyond that. ACA, JZA, WJA reps have all worked together through this. The times for divisions and bullshit because of where you work are over.

I just wish we didn't have to listen to his speech twice, if we had to do the French, just subtitle it in English for me and I'm good. It kind of killed some momentum when other than in YUL most of the guys didn't know what he was talking about.

Having 1 speaker do his speech in french out of 4
Is not an issue…
French is one of the two official language and also the “french” base was happy to have him
Speak in french!

I didn't say French was an issue. I said that I wish we didn't have to listen to his speech twice.

As I said, do it in French but give the 80+% of us that don't speak French a translation on the screen and keep us engaged. These things are about momentum and engagement and tuning out 80+% for 10 minutes doesn't do that.

[Nick678]

I had the chance to talk to an old ACPA rep (I know they didn't have the best reputation but not relevant here) he was pretty pissed that Claude was speaking at the rally.

"if jazz pilots only knew what he was doing behind closed doors" He went on further to say that Claude only acts in self interest and doesn't give a shit about the pilot group. Shot down anything that didn't get him more money.

I guess just gossip but jazz could probably stand to benefit from new leadership in the union. Power corrupts.

[GIVCE!]

So you took “gossip” from an “old ACPA rep” and posted it here again why? Have you even met Claude? Better to keep your gossip and opinions to yourself during these times. They serve only to divide…
Good luck in the negotiations. You will need all the expertise you can muster.
We are all watching with bated breath.

G

[cdnavater]

I had the chance to talk to an old ACPA rep (I know they didn't have the best reputation but not relevant here) he was pretty pissed that Claude was speaking at the rally.

"if jazz pilots only knew what he was doing behind closed doors" He went on further to say that Claude only acts in self interest and doesn't give a shit about the pilot group. Shot down anything that didn't get him more money.

I guess just gossip but jazz could probably stand to benefit from new leadership in the union. Power corrupts.

@#$! that, if it wasn’t for Claude working behind closed doors, GGN would have been operating CRJ 900s, it was imminent, by imminent we are talking days away and that most definitely would have been detrimental to the pilot group.
The company only wanted to increase pay for the junior pilots and training pilots, he said @#$! that, all Jazz pilots get a raise or no one gets a raise!
As a training pilot who would’ve benefited from the company’s proposal, I 100% supported Claude’s standpoint, that was also for the entire pilot group.
Lastly, he has been working with AC APLA to bridge the divide, even our last contract improvement was run by your(AC MEC) before it went to us, we are all trying to let go of the past, ACPA reps screwed Jazz pilots more than any other group in history, so forgive me if I don’t take one of their statements as fact!

[daedalusx]

So it’s ok to screw the junior guys with a bscale but it’s wrong to give a raise to junior guys after they’ve been screwed ?

[truedude]

So it’s ok to screw the junior guys with a bscale but it’s wrong to give a raise to junior guys after they’ve been screwed ?

Difference is that we are talking about those on property, vs those not yet hired. Everyone came to Jazz knowing what the terms of employment were.

[cdnavater]

So it’s ok to screw the junior guys with a bscale but it’s wrong to give a raise to junior guys after they’ve been screwed ?

NO you idiot, the company ONLYwanted to raise the bottom two years to attract pilots who were only staying two years.
The junior guys were NEVER “screwed”, you clearly have no clue on the history despite it being spelled out over many, many times! There were no junior guys to screw if we didn’t give them the b scale, there was no hiring after 2010 until after the b scale in 2015, all new hiring was going to SR and then GGN. Was that Jazz pilots fault too, are we somehow responsible for their crap pay that all you fucking idiots signed up for too? Are we to blame for all the downward spiral that has been Canadian aviation, the creation of Sky Regional is somehow all Jazz pilots fault, we are the cause of the demise of all of Canadian aviation!
Thankfully we protected the current pilots pay, it would have been an impossible hill to climb back up to get back, look at AC negotiations, 40% increase required just to get back to inflation and the company walks away from the table saying it’s unreasonable. This is where the blame needs to fall, clearly they were right, pilots were signing up for the job in droves, why the hell would they raise the pay.
Regarding Jazz Bscale, I directly asked the VP of flight ops at the time if they didn’t think they had gone to far with this new scale, his response was we’ll know in a few weeks if we went to far! Guess what, until the last couple years when hiring went insane, we had no shortage of applicants and that is when the union stepped in to make gains for all Jazz pilots who were held back by the junior pilots accepting the shit conditions, somehow justifying their decision but condemning ours to save our jobs!

[daedalusx]

Yeah sure ... whatever happened to "We share the good times and we share the bad times" ... If cuts had to be made it should have been made over all the members. But whatever, you got to keep your Jclass seat and pension so screw the little guy

[cdnavater]

Yeah sure ... whatever happened to "We share the good times and we share the bad times" ... If cuts had to be made it should have been made over all the members. But whatever, you got to keep your Jclass seat and pension so screw the little guy

What are you a liberal?

[daedalusx]

Yeah sure ... whatever happened to "We share the good times and we share the bad times" ... If cuts had to be made it should have been made over all the members. But whatever, you got to keep your Jclass seat and pension so screw the little guy

What are you a liberal?

Very weak ad-hominem attack ...

[cdnavater]

Yeah sure ... whatever happened to "We share the good times and we share the bad times" ... If cuts had to be made it should have been made over all the members. But whatever, you got to keep your Jclass seat and pension so screw the little guy

What are you a liberal?

Very weak ad-hominem attack ...

Ok, what I should have said is, how very liberal of you but lacks the reality of human nature to protect ones own. You can sit on your high horse or your soap box or whatever you want to call it, until you are faced with a decision to protect what you have or share the pain, you can’t answer the question honestly.
I’ll give you an example, I was being paid more for the same job back in the early 90s, back when you were still floating around in your dads sack but I digress, the other pilots found out I was making more because I had negotiated(asked) a raise and despite me being there longer they had demanded an increase to match or they all walked. They found out because of the carelessness of our bookkeeper who left the payroll on her desk over the weekend, regardless the owner came to me and said I had to take a pay cut back to what the others were making because he couldn’t afford to pay them all the same.
Within a year, they were all gone and I was making less money than before, what did I learn from this, pilots are selfish and don’t care how much they screw over other pilots, you are no different, you want me to make less so you can make more, doesn’t matter that I’ve been flying for over 30 years, that doesn’t matter to you, why because you are every bit as selfish as you accuse me of being!

[daedalusx]

What are you a liberal?

Very weak ad-hominem attack ...

you are no different, you want me to make less so you can make more, doesn’t matter that I’ve been flying for over 30 years, that doesn’t matter to you, why because you are every bit as selfish as you accuse me of being!

Cope harder with your cuckold projection bro. “I’m a yellow bellied coward so surely you are one too” isn’t as good as an argument as you might think. I’ve worked plenty of 702/703/704 (and non aviation jobs) before Jazz and I always left the place in a better shape than I found it and I’ve fought for my peers because it was morally right and earned no financial gains doing so. Actually quite the opposite.

Maybe it’s time to accept than some people are made of stronger stuff than you …

As for calling me a liberal … hilarious considering I live on a farm, homeschool my kids and was called a racist misogynist extremist by our fearless leader 2 years ago. I’ve been called a lot of things in my life … never thought I’d see the day I get called a liberal of all things but here we are.

[cdnavater]

Very weak ad-hominem attack ...

you are no different, you want me to make less so you can make more, doesn’t matter that I’ve been flying for over 30 years, that doesn’t matter to you, why because you are every bit as selfish as you accuse me of being!

Cope harder with your cuckold projection bro. “I’m a yellow bellied coward so surely you are one too” isn’t as good as an argument as you might think. I’ve worked plenty of 702/703/704 (and non aviation jobs) before Jazz and I always left the place in a better shape than I found it and I’ve fought for my peers because it was morally right and earned no financial gains doing so. Actually quite the opposite.

Maybe it’s time to accept than some people are made of stronger stuff than you …

As for calling me a liberal … hilarious considering I live on a farm, homeschool my kids and was called a racist misogynist extremist by our fearless leader 2 years ago. I’ve been called a lot of things in my life … never thought I’d see the day I get called a liberal of all things but here we are.

Ok, since you don’t know me, I’ll let the coward thing slide, I could list the things over three decades that I did to make things better than I started with but to sum up, I’ve been “laid off” four times, make no mistake, I was fired for refusing to do the stupid and dangerous things the other pilots were willing to do because they were trying to build their hours. Me, I was just trying to get home safe every day. I was fighting long before you even thought of becoming a pilot. Every time, I took a stand, 10 more pilots were drooling at the thought of a spot opening up for them and were more than happy to hold the door open for me to leave!
I have held management positions where I always took the position, I was the pilots last line of defence from upper management, had many pilots tell me how much that was appreciated and there are many other things I did over my time that were to benefit the profession!
So, after 20 years of watching pilots step on their grandmothers head to get ahead, I voted for a contract that preserved what I had and offered them a choice to say @#$! you Jazz, they continued to apply because why, they are selfish and justify their actions by blaming others, well if that makes you feel better about devaluing your worth by accepting the shit pay, then I’ll take the blame for you, it all my fault!
Liberals like to take from the higher income and spread it around to the lower income, might want to rethink whether or not you have liberal views!