And that exactly why I said I was not going to argue about exotics scenarios. I don't care where people go, but saying that AC pays noticeably more than WJ is incorrect and must be debunked.
And my point is that any scenario is exotic when it's unexpected. Using your 25 year timeframe - something will happen and one of the choices will be a clear winner when viewed 25 years from now. Nobody knows which. The best choice is to pick the one that puts you in the best situation the earliest or that one that gives you most options. Currently AC wins on both.
Again, using your scenario; the AC pilot upgrades after 2 years while the WS pilot upgrades after 9 - how many years does it take for the WS pilot to close the gap? According to you she never does and finishes her career 16% behind. Furthermore, for at least the last half of their respective careers the AC pilot has the WB option and other postion options. AC has 43 (or is it 46, can't remember) biddable pilot positions with the current fleet. The flexibility to bid senior for pay or junior for schedule at 4 different bases across all those positions is nothing to sneeze at when considering a 25 or 30 career.
Sure, if you restrict your analysis to the 737 WS comes relatively close to AC but that's an artificial restriction. In the real world bidding WB for a few years before retiring greatly increases the differential doing it even earlier makes the difference significant.
It's like saying the ham on the Hilton buffet is better than the ham on the Crowne Plaza buffet. That might be true but the Crowne Plaza buffet also has roast beef and turkey.
Is it though? Or is it a no brainer only for those who want to fly WB? Or more exactly, those who want to fly WB as Captains?
Let's ask the numbers
Paul and Jen are hired today, Paul at AC, Jen at WJ.
Paul upgrades on the 737 after completing 2 years as an FO, Jen upgrades on the 737 after completing 9 years as an FO.
They work for 25 years, what is going to be the difference in their total income? 16%.
I used October 2024 numbers, that should be at the advantage at AC. And an upgrade 737 after 2 years for someone hired today sounds optimistic as well. 16% is not nothing, but it is not the abysmal difference that some think it is.
I will not be arguing about "yes but this scenario or that scenario and what if Paul becomes 777 Captain after 6 months and he flies only at night until his death". The finest pilots of North America are probably able to use excel.
The problem with these sorts of planning scenarios is that the possible futures rapidly outnumber anything that a person can imagine. What if Gerry goes crazy and sells off to some 3rd rate group who mismanages the company into the ground? What if the feds open the boarder with the US and Southwest moves in and beats Westjet into oblivion, what if the feds open the border to the world and Emirates comes in and takes 90% of AC's international market, what if there's another global financial crash, what if there's a war?
What if something happens tomorrow or what if it happens in 10 years? It's impossible to predict with any certainty at all what will happen and which company might be the better choice - you won't know until you retire and, of course, by then it's too late.
From a purely QoL POV a person with a young family might want to maximize time at home and the ability to control their schedule - sacrifice earnings to get this. Sounds good until you realize you didn't have the financial resources to save for their kids education and don't have it now to pay-as-you-go. The other choice would be to go to the place that gets an upgrade ASAP - sacrifice some ability to control schedule but earn more.
Taking your scenario imagine some crisis or industry meltdown in 10 years; by that time Jen has 1 year of earnings as a Capt and Paul has had 8 so who's ahead? Of course maybe nothing happens or maybe something happens that only negatively affects AC in which case Jen pulls ahead.
The point is that you can't just take a snapshot of the present and extend it into the future expecting a linear pregression to get there. This doesn't even account for the possibilty that one group out negotiates the other or what possible fleet changes might happen. In 30 years the 737 is long gone - what replaces it and which company moves ahead?
Personally I'd take AC over Westjet in almost every scenario. The extra flexibility of a fleet with more types, more base choices, it being a larger company that's publically traded and the current faster upgrades win out over QoL. Let's be honest the most important kind of QoL is a bigger paycheque.
One other thing I can tell you is that after 20 years of NB flying virtually everyone comes to the same conclusion; they want to try out the WB. And, when they do, they all say exactly the same thing - why did I wait so long to do this? Even if the pay was exactly the same another layover in Edmonton vs a layover in London? Come on, be serious.
And that exactly why I said I was not going to argue about exotics scenarios. I don't care where people go, but saying that AC pays noticeably more than WJ is incorrect and must be debunked.
Perhaps if someone can answer the question about nav/night pay addition, I don’t believe WJ pays this, it’s the same whether you go to Glasgow or Fort Mcmurray, day or night, correct?
AC has this top up, to what extent it plays a roll on the 37 is something I don’t know but my buddy is on it and said it could add 17/hr for that flying, it will definitely play a roll on the 321XLR when they arrive
I agree. There has always been an air of superiority with AC. Wonderfully exampled by their union’s ’we’re not WestJet’ video. Nope, they’re certainly not. 5% higher top end captain pay with worse QOL. That didn’t age well.
It's not an air of superiority, at least not that I've ever seen. Speaking strictly on financials, you'll make WAY more at AC over your career than you ever would at WJ. I think that's where the appeal lies, and why you see so many Calgary pilots who would rather commute. The money is just that much better.
Before you rebut with 737 pay scales side by side, it's important to remember that very few at AC will choose that path for their whole career. They'll move to WB FO, then NB captain, all in the same time someone is still stuck in the right seat of a 737 at WJ. More money also means more pension.
So look at the compensation over an entire career, not just hour to hour 737 wages, and you'll see why you're constantly getting asked if you're going to AC. Long term, it's a no-brainer.
Correct me if I’m wrong but the posted hourly doesn’t include the night/Nav pay which is still part of the pay structure, my buddy says it could add 17/hr on the 37 for a Hawaii run. How much is night pay?
I don’t believe WJ has this add on.
We no longer have night pay at AC. NB pilots flying overseas receive both OVS and NAV pay which for an FO is $9.11 and $7.59/hr respectively. And this will go up 4% per year over each year of the contract much like the base rates.
It's not an air of superiority, at least not that I've ever seen. Speaking strictly on financials, you'll make WAY more at AC over your career than you ever would at WJ. I think that's where the appeal lies, and why you see so many Calgary pilots who would rather commute. The money is just that much better.
Before you rebut with 737 pay scales side by side, it's important to remember that very few at AC will choose that path for their whole career. They'll move to WB FO, then NB captain, all in the same time someone is still stuck in the right seat of a 737 at WJ. More money also means more pension.
So look at the compensation over an entire career, not just hour to hour 737 wages, and you'll see why you're constantly getting asked if you're going to AC. Long term, it's a no-brainer.
Correct me if I’m wrong but the posted hourly doesn’t include the night/Nav pay which is still part of the pay structure, my buddy says it could add 17/hr on the 37 for a Hawaii run. How much is night pay?
I don’t believe WJ has this add on.
We no longer have night pay at AC. NB pilots flying overseas receive both OVS and NAV pay which for an FO is $9.11 and $7.59/hr respectively. And this will go up 4% per year over each year of the contract much like the base rates.
Thanks, does that kick in when you cross the shoreline or the entire leg, does it apply to the Caribbean?
Any flight operation that departs and/or arrives outside of Canada, the United States (excluding Hawaii), Mexico, the Bahamas and the Territorial Collectivity of Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon;
Valid points. I certainly wish nothing but the best for the AC pilot group (and every other one for that matter), I’m simply dumbfounded as to the tunnel vision so many people have for that company. Top end pay might be the best but QOL is certainly horrible from what I’ve heard.
I’ve said it before, unless you have a desire to fly long haul or you crave the stability of AC, I really just can’t see the appeal of working for that company, especially now. It blows my mind that they didn’t just pay Junior FO’s what they deserve and subsequently cripple their competition with the pilot vacuum they would’ve become.
Pretty much why I came here. I miss the flying I used to do, the crews I used to work with, the camaraderie we all had and the overall sense of satisfaction of my last airline. And as much as I'd loved to have stayed, 1) I wanted to at some point experience overseas flying on a widebody and WestJet did NOT appeal to me strictly because of the upgrade time and 2) I could not guarantee my previous employer would last the duration of my career. I did not want to risk sticking around to find out.
Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy working here at AC in the sense I like the airplanes, I enjoy the pilots I work with and there are certain aspects of the job I appreciate being part of a legacy airline. Some of that includes my retired parents enjoying globe trotting (more than me believe it or not) on my passes. But otherwise in that sense, you are right, unless you want those things listed above, there most definitely are other great options in this country that can offer something AC can't and I hope the Porters', Flairs' and Transats' continue to be successful. It is good for us all.
You sure you didn’t leave your previous to go “flying4dollars”?
Maybe I’m reading it wrong: it could be flying for a few dollars…
I know the feeling of flying for a smaller airline where everyone knows each other and that’s cool that you made the move that worked for you .
And that exactly why I said I was not going to argue about exotics scenarios. I don't care where people go, but saying that AC pays noticeably more than WJ is incorrect and must be debunked.
And my point is that any scenario is exotic when it's unexpected. Using your 25 year timeframe - something will happen and one of the choices will be a clear winner when viewed 25 years from now. Nobody knows which. The best choice is to pick the one that puts you in the best situation the earliest or that one that gives you most options. Currently AC wins on both.
Again, using your scenario; the AC pilot upgrades after 2 years while the WS pilot upgrades after 9 - how many years does it take for the WS pilot to close the gap? According to you she never does and finishes her career 16% behind. Furthermore, for at least the last half of their respective careers the AC pilot has the WB option and other postion options. AC has 43 (or is it 46, can't remember) biddable pilot positions with the current fleet. The flexibility to bid senior for pay or junior for schedule at 4 different bases across all those positions is nothing to sneeze at when considering a 25 or 30 career.
Sure, if you restrict your analysis to the 737 WS comes relatively close to AC but that's an artificial restriction. In the real world bidding WB for a few years before retiring greatly increases the differential doing it even earlier makes the difference significant.
It's like saying the ham on the Hilton buffet is better than the ham on the Crowne Plaza buffet. That might be true but the Crowne Plaza buffet also has roast beef and turkey.
I guess you're not too familiar with the structure of scientific reasoning. That helps to answer properly to questions instead of rambling.
phenix wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 1:39 pm
I guess you're not too familiar with the structure of scientific reasoning. That helps to answer properly to questions instead of rambling.
First of all, you didn't ask me a question. You posted your thoughts on AC pay vs WS pay and I replied with mine.
Second of all; scientific reasoning? That's the standard for posts on an anonymous pilot forum? Since when? I must have missed the change.
Third; no person familiar with "scientific reasoning" or statistics, or basic math would take today's payrates and extend them 25 years into the future and use that as the sole decision criteria for a career destination.
But, I am sorry to have wasted your time. Perhaps I saved someone from following your faulty logic.
