Is this job worth being broke for the next decade?

[Eric Janson]

People here keep suggesting impossible/improbably solutions to the problem! Many have been helpful though and I’m happy to point that out when true!

You missed the second line:-

The point you are missing is that if you want something - there's always a way. Motivation.

You were complaining you had no options - I gave you some to illustrate that your assertion is incorrect.

Again reading comprehension is a critical part of Aviation.

Ontario Northland has an extensive network in N Ontario ( I actually check these things ).

I wouldn’t say driving washing the bosses car (sky care) or using a forklift is an apprenticeship for someone who spend a small fortune on flight training!

How many accountants load the truck at the factory owned by the company they work for?

You do understand that at smaller companies Pilots load their own aircraft?

Being able to drive a forklift is a useful skill in this situation.

One of my first jobs on the ramp was refuelling aircraft - I know all about high pressure refuelling as a result.

A number of years ago I arrived at our A340-500 to find it unpowered. Normally our Engineers power up /refuel the aircraft before the crew arrives. Our Engineers had been called away to an AOG situation with another aircraft. My colleague performed the Cockpit preparation while I was outside taking care of the refuelling and getting the loading details so we could make a loadsheet. We ferried the aircraft to where it was needed next. No drama.

The above is perfectly normal in the ACMI/Charter World where being pro-active is part of the job.

[BTD]

While you are on here there are hundreds of others currently doing the things you consider impossible/improbable.

Everyone on here and everyone flying for a job has done the impossible/improbable things.

Sounds like you don’t want it and want someone to tell you it’s not your fault.

[propfeather]

People here keep suggesting impossible/improbably solutions to the problem! Many have been helpful though and I’m happy to point that out when true!

I wouldn’t say driving washing the bosses car (sky care) or using a forklift is an apprenticeship for someone who spend a small fortune on flight training!

I've said this before in your threads, but networking is your biggest asset.
Where are your previous instructors going to work after they've left their instructor jobs? Where are your fellow student pilots getting jobs once they get their licences? You've been at this long enough that you should have connections spread throughout the industry.

If not, start now. You don't have to be best friends, but get on a first-name basis, and keep in touch. They are the ones who will get you your first job, likely no road trip required.
Avoid asking the ones who seem like complete idiots though, the boss probably won't be so interested in hiring the friend of a guy they regret hiring.

This is something you can do before you have your licences, and is FREE.

Your impression of ground jobs seems to be the worst case scenario. You will work hard and not make much money, but they aren't dead end jobs. You will learn a lot that will help you become a good FO and eventually Captain.
The eager rampies are usually better FOs (in the bush) than flight instructors in my experience. Although there's always exceptions, attitude plays the biggest role there. Be humble, willing to learn, and know your role.

[nohojob]

Arguing on avcanada is a big waste of time and depressing in your case. Close your computer and work on your IFR.
If you have reached the Instrument rating stage it means you have the technical skills to make it. You don't need an AvCanada PPC

[pelmet]

While you are on here there are hundreds of others currently doing the things you consider impossible/improbable.

Everyone on here and everyone flying for a job has done the impossible/improbable things.

Sounds like you don’t want it and want someone to tell you it’s not your fault.

He has already made clear what he wants....

There are dozens of white collar, professions where you effectively get the keys to the Castle after maybe a few weeks of shadowing the person whose job you’re going to do!

[lostav8r]

People here keep suggesting impossible/improbably solutions to the problem! Many have been helpful though and I’m happy to point that out when true!

You do understand that at smaller companies Pilots load their own aircraft?

Being able to drive a forklift is a useful skill in this situation.

As a northerner I'm aware, that's why I find it funny people are insisting you can have a northern flying job and no car.



The forklift is fine if it's part of the job, not the entire job was my point.

People here keep suggesting impossible/improbably solutions to the problem! Many have been helpful though and I’m happy to point that out when true!

I wouldn’t say driving washing the bosses car (sky care) or using a forklift is an apprenticeship for someone who spend a small fortune on flight training!

I've said this before in your threads, but networking is your biggest asset.
Where are your previous instructors going to work after they've left their instructor jobs? Where are your fellow student pilots getting jobs once they get their licences? You've been at this long enough that you should have connections spread throughout the industry.

If not, start now. You don't have to be best friends, but get on a first-name basis, and keep in touch. They are the ones who will get you your first job, likely no road trip required.
Avoid asking the ones who seem like complete idiots though, the boss probably won't be so interested in hiring the friend of a guy they regret hiring.

This is something you can do before you have your licences, and is FREE.

Your impression of ground jobs seems to be the worst case scenario. You will work hard and not make much money, but they aren't dead end jobs. You will learn a lot that will help you become a good FO and eventually Captain.
The eager rampies are usually better FOs (in the bush) than flight instructors in my experience. Although there's always exceptions, attitude plays the biggest role there. Be humble, willing to learn, and know your role.

Thanks for a different perspective. I've been at this for a while so everyone I know who is still in flying is at a 705 already and doesn't have any contacts at a more entry level company.

As for ground jobs, outside of flying I've had a bait and switch, boss quit, I stayed YEARS at a company that promised I'd get his job, and instead they just made me do both jobs. Fool me once and all that jazz!

[pelmet]

As a northerner I'm aware, that's why I find it funny people are insisting you can have a northern flying job and no car.

I bet you could do it in YZF. Air Tindi.

Doesn't matter because you have a car. So plan on a loading job and guess what? Any good employee and competent pilot will make it to the right seat. No keys to the castle after a few weeks of 705 though.

Waiting for the next excuses.

[lostav8r]

As a northerner I'm aware, that's why I find it funny people are insisting you can have a northern flying job and no car.

I bet you could do it in YZF. Air Tindi.

Doesn't matter because you have a car. So plan on a loading job and guess what? Any good employee and competent pilot will make it to the right seat. No keys to the castle after a few weeks of 705 though.

Waiting for the next excuses.

Tindi is how it should be done IMO! You get a PPC so the company "invests" in you, and occasionally lets me fly. I'd be 100% happy with that arrangement, though it's obviously nearly impossible to get in.

[pelmet]

As a northerner I'm aware, that's why I find it funny people are insisting you can have a northern flying job and no car.

I bet you could do it in YZF. Air Tindi.

Doesn't matter because you have a car. So plan on a loading job and guess what? Any good employee and competent pilot will make it to the right seat. No keys to the castle after a few weeks of 705 though.

Waiting for the next excuses.

Tindi is how it should be done IMO! You get a PPC so the company "invests" in you, and occasionally lets me fly. I'd be 100% happy with that arrangement, though it's obviously nearly impossible to get in.

Have you applied?

[digits_]

in the Professions I'm familiar with there are always forms of Apprenticeships.

Let's keep the discussion honest though. Pilot in waiting / ramp jobs are not apprencticeships and should not be compared to them.
Apprenticeships are either a legal or industry required part of an education. Ramp time is not a requirement. The same person can end up as a King Air FO, C206 pilot or on the ramp, based on nothing more than luck.

Ask yourself this: "Can someone without a pilot license do this job? If so, how much would they be paid?". If you, as a pilot, are then paid LESS to do the same job, just because you hold a pilot license, you're being taken advantage of. Accept it, or don't, but please don't defend these practices. Even if you had to do it 'back in your day'.

Teaching someone high pressure fuelling or driving a forklift does not take years. You can literally teach all that stuff in 2 days. It truly is not rocket science.

And yes, those things can all be part of the job as a pilot. That's fine, once you're actually employed as a pilot and paid as a pilot.

One of my first jobs on the ramp was refuelling aircraft - I know all about high pressure refuelling as a result.

A number of years ago I arrived at our A340-500 to find it unpowered. Normally our Engineers power up /refuel the aircraft before the crew arrives. Our Engineers had been called away to an AOG situation with another aircraft. My colleague performed the Cockpit preparation while I was outside taking care of the refuelling and getting the loading details so we could make a loadsheet. We ferried the aircraft to where it was needed next. No drama.

The above is perfectly normal in the ACMI/Charter World where being pro-active is part of the job.

You're also very likely breaking a lot of rules, policies if you jump on a random fuel bowser and fuel up your plane because it's more efficient than waiting for the fueller. Your company would hang you out to dry if something went wrong and you damaged anything. Even if you know what you're doing because you did it 25 years ago.

It might work for your company, but it's irrelevant for most Canadian jobs. And again, teaching someone to fuel does not take years on a ramp.

[propfeather]

Thanks for a different perspective. I've been at this for a while so everyone I know who is still in flying is at a 705 already and doesn't have any contacts at a more entry level company.

As for ground jobs, outside of flying I've had a bait and switch, boss quit, I stayed YEARS at a company that promised I'd get his job, and instead they just made me do both jobs. Fool me once and all that jazz!

Time to get some new contacts then, talk to the other students and instructors at your flight school. Chat with people at the flying club, FBO, or whatever local organization you have.

[Eric Janson]

One of my first jobs on the ramp was refuelling aircraft - I know all about high pressure refuelling as a result.

A number of years ago I arrived at our A340-500 to find it unpowered. Normally our Engineers power up /refuel the aircraft before the crew arrives. Our Engineers had been called away to an AOG situation with another aircraft. My colleague performed the Cockpit preparation while I was outside taking care of the refuelling and getting the loading details so we could make a loadsheet. We ferried the aircraft to where it was needed next. No drama.

The above is perfectly normal in the ACMI/Charter World where being pro-active is part of the job.

You're also very likely breaking a lot of rules, policies if you jump on a random fuel bowser and fuel up your plane because it's more efficient than waiting for the fueller. Your company would hang you out to dry if something went wrong and you damaged anything. Even if you know what you're doing because you did it 25 years ago.

It might work for your company, but it's irrelevant for most Canadian jobs. And again, teaching someone to fuel does not take years on a ramp.

No rules were broken - I didn't operate a bowser - just ensured the refueller had connected the bowser and most importantly the grounding cable before doing anything else. Then I made sure the re-fuelling panel on the aircraft was set correctly and the correct amount of fuel was loaded and the distribution was correct (there's 7 fuel tanks on the A340-500 and a sequence for filling them). Not everyone knows how to do this. This isn't trained on a Type Rating course.

[digits_]

Not everyone knows how to do this. This isn't trained on a Type Rating course.

Great if your company allows that and would protect you if something went wrong.

I don't know any company in Canada where this would be allowed. You don't perform a task like that without formal company training. Either formal training is provided, in which case previous experience doesn't matter much, or it isn't, and then you shouldn't be doing it in the first place....