Question about widow

snaproll20 · Post by **snaproll20** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:13 pm

BigWillStyle and Cat Driver.

never truer words......................

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:25 pm

>>>> never truer words......................

Unfortunately we are probably just word masterbating here in this small group and TC will just do as they wish.

How can aviation really improve when even in this small group there are many who are satisfied with the status quo and as long as their comfortable obscure little world is not affected they will do nothing to bring about change.

Hell some of them think that SMS and all the other window dressing will improve things, and they are correct, for the law breakers it will make it easier to operate.

The question that should be asked is that an improvement?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:27 pm

[delete

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:43 pm

So the plane took off from Campbell River - the spit is right where that ferry is. Five minutes later it crashed where it says Sutil Passage.

From what we can tell using witness reports, the pilot went around the bottom of Quadra, circled up through the cloud where it says Sutil Passage and headed up over Heriot Bay. This is the area the witnesses heard the sound of the engine change.

ply-wood · Post by **ply-wood** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:02 pm

circled up through the clouds? in a 50 year old single engine airplane?

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 3:18 am

Welcome to the coast..

A lot of the people here who are critical of the pilot flying in this weather have absolutley no idea of west coast flying. This is one of the reasons companies out here want west coast time when hiring. It is much different than most places in the country. Flying in those conditions is normal out here, and the conditions can vary quite extremely enroute. The wind can be howling in one place, but quite calm just a couple miles away, it will be severe clear and suddenly you encounter a fog bank. Give it a few minutes and it's all changed.

A good friend of mine was flying in that area on the day of the accident and told me that there were patchy fog areas. Marginal but doable.. With the evidence that widow has provided, I do believe that there was an engine problem which created a situation that could not have a good end. The pilot suddenly found himself with a bad airplane in less than ideal conditions and I'm sure he did the best he could to get the best result. Unfortunatley it didn't work out for the best. The fact that SAR was not notified for some time sure didn't help things out.

I knew widow's husband from flying him into and out of camp on a number of occasions. He was a great guy. I wish her all the best and I'm sure with her drive she will make a difference for our industry.

For that, we should all be thankfull.

Don't listen to the naysayers Kirsten, keep up the fight!!!

Bede · Post by **Bede** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 8:18 am

I think Kirsten is doing a great job. I checked out her website and it is quite informative.

Keep up the good work.

BigWillyStyle · Post by **BigWillyStyle** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:34 pm

(doubled post)

BigWillyStyle · Post by **BigWillyStyle** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:35 pm

Catdriver: Quite true. My beef is with pilots making less than pizza-delivery wage who refuse to pull the plug on their gig when the safety becomes mostly dodgy with isolated scary. My first CP told me to "have a little pride in what you're doing." I found that it was tough to be proud of flying along with a mental list of snags 3 feet long that was met with outright threats of dismissal from management. The wink-wink nudge-nudge complicity of TC, as you are well aware, goes without saying. What I say is that the entire atmosphere of low time and/or bush flying is low on integrity and high on greed and bravado. What personally astounds me is the pervasive opinion in the industry that one can subject 50 year-old machinery to 120% (or more) of manufacturers limits, for decades, and expect NOTHING to happen. In no other profession does that pinhead reasoning occur. And then some one dies, and the attitude doesn't change. The stonewalling that Widow is getting doesn't surprise me in the least.

BWS

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:02 pm

Big Willy, you are 110% correct in your last post.

It has been like this in the small airplane charter business ( I think the Canadian designation is 703 operations, so much has changed since I left Canada to earn a living I get confused with their newest flavour of the year descriptions. ) anyhow it has been thus since I can remember, the industry thrives on bribery, payoffs and favours between the sleasy operators and the corrupt officials in TC.

The carnage and loss of life that has resulted from such a third world mentality in aviation is a shame to the industry, but condoned and active as we talk to each other here on the internet.

widow is an abberation that the industry is unable to deal with because she is an outsider who has decided to do something to bring about change.

If only we had more like her the pressure might get high enough to rattle the chains of the polititions in Ottawa who are the only group who can actually bring about change.

Then I get to thinking about the reality and this question pops into my mind...what is a politition? are polititions trustworthy? and most depressing is the question of what hold do the bureaucrats have on these polititions that allow people like Preuss to thumb his nose at Parliament and thus at the very foundation of what Canada should stand for...rule of law and the right of every Canadian citizen to protection from corrupt individuals.

So even though widow is making waves at the moment I am afraid the fix between corrupt operators and corrupt TC officials is in so deep that nothing of any real consequence will change.

Sad but true.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:47 pm

I'm still hoping tomorrow's committee meeting will be a good show.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 6:52 pm

We all are widow.

But regardless of what transpires tomorrow there has to be changes made in how aviation is regulated.

Please don't take my comments to mean anymore than being my own feelings based on watching this game played for half a century go from bad to worse.

Hang in and don't lose your focus.

Remember I know some of the top people in TC on a personal level and have been in the system long enough to know how solid the fix is in.

CID · Post by **CID** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:05 am

So let me get this straight. The poor safety record for west coast 703 operators is due to them pushing the limits? The statement about the Beaver that "circled up through the cloud" does little to convince me that this accident was a result of poor judegment and possibly even rule breaking by the pilot.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:15 am

CID, you are one of the most frustrating posters on Avcanada.

You don't know jack shit about flying on the west coast of Canada, to make such an assumption based on some witness report shows the lack of understanding that you possess about this type of flying.

So just for your information there will be many times when float plane pilots will choose to climb above clouds to maintain safe flying conditions.

What from the ground may appear as a cloud cover can often in reality be seperate clouds allowing legal VFR contact with the surface.

So why don't you go back to working on avionics or whatever you do and leave flying airplanes to people who understand the subject.

CID · Post by **CID** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:05 am

You don't know jack shit about flying on the west coast of Canada, to make such an assumption based on some witness report shows the lack of understanding that you possess about this type of flying.

I based my comments on widow's and twotter's statements and they pretty much clearly support what I posted. How else would you interpret;

Flying in those conditions is normal out here...

That suggests that the criteria you use on the west coast to fly VFR is different than one would expect in Saskatoon or Ottawa or Halifax.

I for one wouldn't feel so safe if my pilot told me the weather was "Marginal but doable".

The pilot suddenly found himself with a bad airplane in less than ideal conditions...

In IMC on VFR note?

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:27 am

From the TSB letter to the coroner:

Weather in the area was variable with respect to cloud bases, the presence offog, wind speed, and water conditions. However, based on the pilot's stated concern that he may not be able to land at Frances Bay on the outbound leg of the trip, it is reasonable to conclude that weather represented a risk factor for his flight either enroute or in the vicinity of Frances Bay. Weather in the vicinity of Knight Inlet was reported to be good for visual flight.

As I've said before, everyone else in the area was flying. The weather did not cause the problem, but certainly complicated it.

CID · Post by **CID** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:00 pm

Thanks for the clarification widow. It makes me wonder however if a strictly VFR airplane is the right choice for west coast ops.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:24 pm

Thanks for the clarification widow. It makes me wonder however if a strictly VFR airplane is the right choice for west coast ops.

That statement is evidence of the fact that you haven't got a clue about this subject so why are you muddying the waters here CID?

CID · Post by **CID** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:30 pm

Cat Driver, all I see is an "old boy's club" on the west coast that may be part of the problem rather than the solution. I wish you'd hold to your guns and ignore me. Your endless string of insults (instead of converstion) does nobody any good. Start acting your age and be the steady voice of reason rather than the constanct source of retaliation and vengeance. Your credibility stock will soar!

If the weather on the west coast is typically poor and the window for VMC operations is limited and the weather can changes faster than you can change your mind, maybe VFR in a 50 year old piston bush plane isn’t the way to go.

Widow stated;

The weather did not cause the problem, but certainly complicated it.

If weather “complicated” a VFR flight, then it certainly IS a problem.

CKS · Post by **CKS** » Tue Apr 24, 2007 11:04 pm

Edited

twotter · Post by **twotter** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:02 am

CKS wrote:Catdriver you are the biggest wank-job I have ever come across. You and your 50+ years of claimed experience and multiple authorities that you claim kiss your ass is all a bunch of spunk. It would be a good day if you did finally leave Canada or at least get a life and stop spending all your time on the internet. I recall you sulking and refusing to post on avcanada after someone told a story about you using shady parts in your operation. Too bad you didn't live up to your word.

Anyone with your claimed qualifications would not spend all their time spouting sh1t on the net. Makes me wonder if you weren't just spit out the bottom of the industry.

Jesus, another ignorant wanker who has one post trying to spout crap.. I guess you are just another incarnation of CID/Airplay/STC..

You have proved your ignorance of aviation with your post, so let's leave it at that. You had your one shot and blew it.

Why these tools have to try and hijack a usefull and knowledge based thread with their own agendas of attempting to belittle people blows me away.

Widow is trying to help us all while trying to find answers for herself, Cat is a very knowledgeable and experienced person who contributes. Why would people be upset with that??

For me to continue on a rant would only play into these fools hand, I would therefore ask all to ignore future posts from CID and CKS. Please do not reply to them as you will only bring misery upon yourself.

Thank you and for widow, please continue your quest. For Cat, carry on as usual..

CID · Post by **CID** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:49 am

I certainly don’t support the manner in which CKS expressed his frustration. It violates what I believe is the spirit of these discussions.

Why these tools have to try and hijack a useful and knowledge based thread with their own agendas of attempting to belittle people blows me away.

twotter,

In my experience on this board you have contributed very little "knowledge". The vast majority of your posts are based on some sort of twisted vengeance and normally include trying to expose people's names or associate negative posts directly to me or some fairy tale associated monikers.

It's always useful to add the odd agitator to a conversation to stimulate discussion. It’s one of the necessary elements of any good brainstorming session. Unfortunately, you don’t bring knowledge, you don’t bring experience, and you don’t stimulate discussion. You just launch personal attacks. That’s the problem I have with CKS’ rant as well but he doesn’t seem to have many posts behind him so I can’t comment beyond those.

I’ve tried to sort things out with you using the private messaging function but you have exposed your true stripes by publicly posting the comments. You aren’t interested in civilized discussion or even working out our differences. You just want to have a public fight, while lying or using faulty information in a pathetic effort to intimidate and bully me into submission.

Sorry, I won’t put up with it and as I’ve suggested before, this board shouldn’t put up with it. Grow up.

Cat Driver and I don’t see eye to eye on many issues and he does share many of your attributes but at least he occasionally contributes good information based on his experience and knowledge. Try to take a cue from him and use your knowledge and experience to debate or discuss. For all of our sakes, put the venom away.

duCapo · Post by **duCapo** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:56 am

CKS wrote:

It's pathetic to see you old timers who lay claim to so much experience spending all your time on a chat forum stroking each others ego. Sad end, but then again your likely just the bottom end sh!t feeders.

It's because we "old timers" have survived, have paid our dues, and have jobs which pay well enough and give us enough leisure time where we are not scrambling at the bottom of the food chain to survive. Besides Cat is retired (almost, sort of) What widow is doing now may one day save your sorry ass. Or save the life of someone close to you. Jesus, some people just never cease to amaze me with their ignorance and stupidity!!

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:00 am

Ya, what CID said. Very well put, BTW. Mental note to self...put CKS on "ignore". 'nuff said.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:34 am

Since this thread is about me ... I have been very grateful to the "oldtimers" for their insight and shared experiences. Sometimes they get hung up on a particular rant - as we all can do when something is particularly close to our hearts - but I have been grateful nonetheless. I have even been grateful to those "naysayers" like CID for forcing me to take a closer look, or re-evaluate ...

CKS, all you have contributed is some foul language and personal attacks.