Formation Flight (Split from Turnaround Bay thread)

[AuxBatOn]

Hedley, let me underline an important passage of the definition of formation flight

FORMATION FLIGHT — More than one aircraft which, by prior arrangement between the pilots, normally operate as a single aircraft with regard to navigation and position reporting. Formation flights may be identified on individual IFR flight plans or may be contained within an ALTRV. As circumstances require, they may be:

In your example with you communicating with the 737 pilot prior to holding in the holding bay, you still wouldn't be considered a formation. You do not normally operate together as a single aircraft.

[scrambled_legs]

. if you saw how many aircraft miss the runway, or go off it, you would be nervous to sit behind a hold line even.

In 55 years of flying I have never seen an airplane miss the runway or seen one run off the runway while I was holding for take off.

Anywhere in the over forty countries I have flown in.

But maybe I was just not in the right place at the right time to see something like that.

In 55 years of flying, how much time did you spend watching the runway? Maybe 15min a day? I spend 8.5 hours a day staring at it.

I've personally seen around 20 runway excursions and can't count how many times someone turned base too tight and were in a steep bank very low, beside the numbers. I've been doing this job for a fraction of the time that you've been flying, but when you spend your whole day watching take-offs and landings, you see some pretty screwy and scary shit that very few pilots see, regardless of how long their career is. As a pilot, you do have to be in the right (or wrong, in my opinion) place, at the right time. As a tower controller, you are going to witness it, it's just a matter of time. How many crashes or fatalities have you witnessed? Unfortunately, I've been a witness to both several times now.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hey scrambled......you don't have to convince me of how inept some pilots are I was only saying I haven't seen any miss a runway yet.

But I can't count the number of times I have had to tell my FO's if they can't keep the fu.kin airplane on the center line during an approach they can not land the thing.

This always gets them motivated to learn to see the correct picture and they become real good at holding the center line during the approach and landing on the center line.

Pilots are easy to motivate, all you have to do is reward them with hands on flying when they deserve it.

N O W ! ! !

Nowhere have I said I will hold in any unapproved area nor do I ignore hold short lines.

[Hedley]

crashes ... fatalities ... it's just a matter of time

You've convinced me. In the interests of safety, all aviation in
Canada must immediately cease. Any pilot who does not
is clearly contravening CAR 602.01, because no "prudent" person
would willingly particpate in an activity that is inevitably fatal.

[scrambled_legs]

Hedley, I'm not sure if you're just trying to divert attention away from the references that I quoted you, or if you didn't read page 3.

We can't let you hold in a turn around bay, it's just one of our many rules that aren't publicly listed but referred to in the AIM.

The public doesn't receive a copy of every rule book that is out there, so the AIM, although not a regulatory manual in itself, must be followed. It may be referring to a CAR's reference, a rule in ATC Manops, or simply hinting at what a "prudent individual" should do. Either way, purposely disobey it, simply because the rule isn't spelled out in CAR's, and you'll be selling your Pitts or moving in a big hurry.

As far as the crashes or fatalities, sure be a classy guy and joke about me watching people die, but any idiot out there, even someone as bull headed as yourself, should know that there is a reason for hold lines. I guess it's just humiliating to be wrong so you have to find something to ridicule me about. Maybe choosing a tragic event, wasn't the best choice. I'm simply letting you know that I've witnessed the reasons first hand on numerous occasions.

[Hedley]

-edited for being insulting.

(bur really funny, nonetheless)

[Flying Nutcracker]

I can't even count the countless times I have taken off or landed, accepting the fact that "men and equipment working less than 150 feet from the edge of the runway"... Now there's a funny formation...

What if there's a displaced threshold...

What if... well take a boo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HEnu3esqlE

Hedley... you're starting to sound more and more like a lawyer!

[complexintentions]

Hedley by any chance are you quite short?

[reverend]

I will confess that I haven't read the entire 4 page thread, will point out there have been several instances of aircraft landing on taxiways. Take that statement at it's face value, people don't always land where their supposed to. Now formation flying has always meant to me flying in the atmosphere and not sitting on a runway. Just because something is or isn't specifically regulated lets help keep each other safe OK?

[Hedley]

Hedley by any chance are you quite short?

er, no, not particularly. 6 foot, 1 inch, 200 lbs, scorpio,
and I enjoy long walks on the beach. Turnoffs include
high marginal tax rates, and the AMT is the work of the
devil himself. I appreciate your offer, but I'm not sure
we'd make a very good couple.

you're starting to sound more and more like a lawyer!

That's a horrible thing to say about a fellow.

there have been several instances of aircraft landing on taxiways

Thousands of aircraft operations occur every year on
taxiways. Try going to KOSH sometime, and check
out "Runway 36R".

[scrambled_legs]

I don't think he was referring to your height.

I haven't met a 3 year old with less class.

[Hedley]

Are you, like, a real pilot and everything?

[scrambled_legs]

Why don't you go make fun of a fire fighter for hauling out a charred body or a cop for shooting a suspect or something. You don't even deserve a reply asshole. At least no ATC in Ottawa will have to suffer bad dreams when they watch you bite it, you insensitive prick.

[Hedley]

You don't even deserve a reply asshole

Then why did you post one? From your reply, I
presume that "having class" like you means calling
people obscene names, and hoping that they have
fatal accidents.

Are you really ATC, or is this a put-on?

[scrambled_legs]

Hedley when you make a joke about me watching people die, obscene names like asshole and insensitive prick are the only names that come close to describing you. Your lack of respect for your fellow pilots that have died in front of my eyes, removes any sympathy that I would have had for you when your end comes. In fact, a resurrection of this thread would make whomever witnessed it, help them get through it. Obviously you don't give a shit when a pilot dies, so why should anyone give a shit when you die.

[Hedley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZnhuOEUFXA

[Rockie]

If the day ever comes when Hedley is wrong he'll explode and there'll be bullshit flying everywhere.

[AuxBatOn]

Thousands of aircraft operations occur every year on
taxiways. Try going to KOSH sometime, and check
out "Runway 36R".

You're talking intentionally landing on the taxiway with everyone knowing. We're talking about someone landing on a taxiway, expected and expecting to land on a runway, but somehow, landing on a parrallel taxiway. It happens, even though it shouldn't. Human factors are huge in aircraft incidents/accidents. Very significant difference here....

[Flying Nutcracker]

Soooo... with the above in mind... if you're in the turnaround bay you should be pretty safe then?!?!?

[Rockie]

The entire responsible aviation industry knows why the turn-around bays cannot be used when another aircraft is landing. Why waste time explaining it to someone who will never get it?

[Hedley]

Hedley: She's lost that loving feeling.
Rockie: No, no she hasn't.
Hedley: Oh, yes she has.
Rockie: I hate it when she does that.

Rockie:

The entire responsible aviation industry knows why the turn-around bays cannot be used when another aircraft is landing

Unfortunately, the above picture of a very pretty formation
doesn't tell the whole story ... moments after this picture
was taken, the 172, as it does during every landing, lost
control, and crashed into BOTH of the aircraft in the turnaround
bay. All of the aircraft instantly exploded into an enormous
ball of flame, the size of which investigators are still having
trouble explaining using newtonian physics. This fireball went
on to engulf the photographer of this picture, whom fortunately
tucked the SD card with this photo into his nomex undies,
and was found later, safely between his charred butt-cheeks,
by the TSB investigators.

The morale of the story? Don't leave skidmarks in your
nomex undies for the TSB investigators to discover - it
really grosses them out, right before they have spaghetti
for lunch.

"She's lost, that lovin' feelin' ...."

[Flying Nutcracker]

LMFAO!!!

Hedley, I am sorry for suggesting that you are a "lawyer"! What I meant to say was that you're a pretty funny guy, in a lawyerish way!

[Rockie]

That's a pretty picture Hedley. I take it that's you in the green one.

As has been proven long before you happened on the scene, it is entirely possible for aircraft to operate in close proximity to each other. The trouble with you is that because you can too, you don't see why any regulation prohibiting it should apply to you. In your world those regulations should only apply to lesser men, and they are deserving of your scorn for being lesser men. That's why I used the word "responsible" in my previous post.

You seem to have the Topgun dialogue nailed. The responsible bald guy in the picture below is now me. Most people turn into that guy as they mature, but a very small percentage don't. That's you. You are the perpetual Maverick.

[Hedley]

I gotta admit, Rockie, that your post was funnier than mine -
I may be a master of sarcasm, but you are the God

[erics2b]

AIM, although not a regulatory manual in itself, must be followed.

Error.

Does not compute.