"Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots"

natej · Post by **natej** » Sun May 17, 2009 4:09 pm

You pilots need to take a page from our books (ATC/FSS) and unionize.

Invertago · Post by **Invertago** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:09 pm

Mustang06 wrote: I'm still unemployed with a baby coming in 6 months. if we don't show some self respect it will continues.

On the upside I heard Carson air will take your first born as a bond in lieu of the cash.

petpad · Post by **petpad** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:25 pm

natej wrote:You pilots need to take a page from our books (ATC/FSS) and unionize.

easier said than done. ATC and FSS have one monopolitic employer which is about the same as working for the government. apples to apples...?

whiteguy · Post by **whiteguy** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:34 pm

ditar wrote:
What were First Officer Shaw’s qualifications and hours logged?
a. First Officer Shaw had 2,220 total hours of flight experience.
b. She had 772 hours flying the Q400 aircraft, qualifying her fully in accordance with all applicable Federal Aviation Regulations.
Interesting, and from what I understand she had even more multi-turbine. Reading the CVR transcript then raises some eyebrows. At one point she asks what the chip detector light is all about. You'd think that would have been covered in more than one ground school or sim session.

When she asked about the chip detector the Capt was talking about previous aircraft he'd flown, a Saab 340 I think. Not sure if the Q400 has a chip detector but not every aircraft does.

E-Flyer · Post by **E-Flyer** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:47 pm

Just another canuck wrote:15,300/year for the flight attendant... only 1000 less than the FO. But really, both salaries are a disgrace.

A thousand less in salary value... tell me again

What exactly is consisted in people becoming pilot's?

There's a lot, I'd probably run out of characters to write it in one post.

Basically a pilot's job up front is much harder, demanding, and requires focus than the people who are only supposed to "ensure" safety... like not putting the seats back up to upright position (a difference in 10 degrees) will really be enough to make a person hit the front seat harder in case of impact... you get my point ...

And at the end salaries are almost equally shared?

When you come to think the amount of training and hard roads you have to go through to becoming a pilot, it almost makes sense to skip all that... enjoy being on airplanes and serve juice instead. Take a 6month course on how to serve people in the air, cause it's totally different than a 2-day-and-then-you're-on-your-own training at a local restaurant.

Lol

Both salaries suck indeed, but if Pilot's are getting paid 16k, flight attendants should be paid somewhere close to 40-50 percent less.

I am not undertaking their importance, but rather, comparing the amount of work it took us, pilot's to get there, and then the flight attendants. And then to see that company's literally values pilot's like waitresses... well that quite stings.

Oh well, can't say we weren't warned... let's enjoy our privilege to fly and work on the side.

But I think a good start to increasing pilot demands would be stopping so many people from becoming pilot's. It's a breeze, anybody with money, or a loan can basically become a pilot. Closing a good portion of the flight schools and isolate only a few schools / province is a good thing. This way, there's no need for schools to attract prospective students by making brochures with pictures of FMC in a 757 Cockpit and an Air Canada Jet taking Off, but rather, attract students because of word of mouth, proper training, and a legendary reputation.

Also, test the aptitude of the students before commencing training.

Increase standards. Sure, transport requires lower standards, but teach to standards exceeding transport requirements (even further than what schools do today).

Control student input versus pilot ouput flow. Train according to industry needs.

It's really unfair for the students to spend away 60k and then have to wait 5 years for a job. And then have other students spend 60k during a different economic outlook and then get hired to fly King Air's. If the economy is down, don't put out so many Professionally Trained pilot's. Recreational... sure why not.

There's arguments to that as well I guess.

Just another canuck · Post by **Just another canuck** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:57 pm

Deleted.

Mustang06 · Post by **Mustang06** » Sun May 17, 2009 5:58 pm

Invertago wrote:
Mustang06 wrote: I'm still unemployed with a baby coming in 6 months. if we don't show some self respect it will continues.
On the upside I heard Carson air will take your first born as a bond in lieu of the cash.

that's not funny.

E-Flyer · Post by **E-Flyer** » Sun May 17, 2009 6:05 pm

Just another canuck wrote:
E-Flyer wrote:Both salaries suck indeed, but if Pilot's are getting paid 16k, flight attendants should be paid somewhere close to 40-50 percent less.
For sure... when I said it's only a 1000 less, I was basically saying it's equal. The FA's don't deserve such a crap salary either, but let's face it, they demonstrate seat belt usage and serve juice and peanuts... but it wouldn't be fair to pay them 8000/year either. They're part of the team, but a not nearly as vital as the pilots. Technically, you could do the flight without FA's... you can't do without the pilots.

What do Jazz FA's make to start? Anyone? And how do you Jazz co-joe's feel about it?

Exactly...

Flybaby · Post by **Flybaby** » Sun May 17, 2009 7:33 pm

Just another canuck wrote:What do Jazz FA's make to start?

Last updated at 5:41 PM on 08/09/08

Air Canada Jazz flight attendants leave Teamsters, form union print this article
THE CANADIAN PRESS

TORONTO — After a five-year battle, Air Canada Jazz flight attendants have broken away from the Teamsters to form a union of their own.
The newly created group, the Canadian Flight Attendants Union (CFAU), represents 934 employees of the regional carrier.
“We’re very proud — it was a lot of hard work,” said Joslyn Dicks, president of the new union and a 20-year veteran flight attendant.
“We’ve got to build confidence in the membership that they now have a union that understands their concerns.”
The flight attendants were previously represented by Teamsters Canada Local 938.
Some flight attendants were unhappy with the Teamsters for accepting a deal in 2004 that saw wage cuts for new employees at Jazz. At the time, the union argued that if it rejected the deal, Air Canada might dissolve the company.
Dicks said the pay cuts accepted by the Teamsters mean as many as 300 of the union’s newer flight attendants make only $19,000 a year.

http://www.trurodaily.com/index.cfm?sid=169148&sc=287

AllCanadianCrisis · Post by **AllCanadianCrisis** » Mon May 18, 2009 1:31 am

Time for socialism. Enough for-profit nonesense. As long as they're out for profit, people will be exploited, in pretty well every industry. Aviation is a particularly despicable example of how the free market exploits labour criminally.

jeta1 · Post by **jeta1** » Mon May 18, 2009 5:47 am

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Just another canuck · Post by **Just another canuck** » Mon May 18, 2009 6:40 am

Deleted.

WingsUpWheelsDown · Post by **WingsUpWheelsDown** » Mon May 18, 2009 6:45 am

There's no doubt that earnings in aviation have been out of wack for a a long time...seems like anything less than the big guys is pure EXTORTION!!! If I'm not mistaken, that's why Unions gained steam in the Industrial revolution. What would happen if every single pilot just didn't show up for work for a week?....mmmm...maybe the CEO's and owners of these companies would see that they had a big problem on their hands.

Realistically...a pilot can serve peanuts...but the FA isn't qualified to fly the plane. Personally, I'd feel safer flying a Caravan by myself than flying as FO next to a person who I assumed knew what they were doing...and not the guy who would fly for the least pay...just food for thought.

jeta1 · Post by **jeta1** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:22 am

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swordfish · Post by **swordfish** » Mon May 18, 2009 11:32 am

Shiny Side Up says:

Pilots must start standing up for themselves, and for those who will follow.

This is a recurrent theme here. I would be interested to understand just how entry-level or low-time pilots do this. Or in fact, experienced junior pilots at the top of their copilot-readiness-for-upgrade.

"Sorry sir, I can't work for such low wages."
"That's fine, blow-me. Obviously this isn't the company for you. I wish you the best in your search for work. Next, please!"

"Oh wow, a job flying a Navajo as a co-pilot! Fan-fuckn-tastic!"
"You haven't asked about the wages, bend-over."
"Whatever you're paying is fine, guys. I need the work as I just LOVE flying and I'm looking for a chance to establish myself in this competitive, dog-eat-dog industry."
"You're hired, dude! It's exactly that kind of enthusiasm and motivation we seek in our plane-washers, ramp-hands, and mechanics' assistants. You start tomorrow on your diverse journey of discovery of the aviation industry."
"But I thought I was going to be a copilot...?"
"That's your primary function, bend-over. As a junior copilot, however, we expect you to get exposure to all facets of our multi-faceted company"...

Are you suggesting that all the unemployed entry-level pilots organize, and refuse to work for shit wages AND, not to mention, CONDITIONS....

Get a life, dude.

sstaurus · Post by **sstaurus** » Mon May 18, 2009 4:00 pm

swordfish wrote:Shiny Side Up says:
Pilots must start standing up for themselves, and for those who will follow.
This is a recurrent theme here. I would be interested to understand just how entry-level or low-time pilots do this.

x2

Also does anyone know just how many CPLs are being issed per year? It seems the extra pilots right now must be due to layoffs rather than new license holders. When I go to the local club, it seems 75% are foreign students who are heading back to their own country after training. Are there really that many Canadians privately paying for their CPLs right now?

C-GGGQ · Post by **C-GGGQ** » Mon May 18, 2009 4:15 pm

The answer is not limiting the number of CPL's the answer is higher CPL standards and a limit to rewrites/ retests. For all licenses. I think you should get one rewrite. If you can't pass the second time around no license period. No more just wait the minimum period and try again till 10 trys later you finally get it. Yes I knew of a guy who was up to his 8th try at the INRAT.

CD · Post by CD » Mon May 18, 2009 5:17 pm

sstaurus wrote:Also does anyone know just how many CPLs are being issed per year?

Summary of Flight Crew and Air Traffic Control Licences

jeta1 · Post by **jeta1** » Mon May 18, 2009 7:37 pm

comment removed - time expired

gratefulsurvivor · Post by **gratefulsurvivor** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:02 pm

Just another canuck wrote:The FA's don't deserve such a crap salary either, but let's face it, they demonstrate seat belt usage and serve juice and peanuts... but it wouldn't be fair to pay them 8000/year either. They're part of the team, but a not nearly as vital as the pilots. Technically, you could do the flight without FA's... you can't do without the pilots.

You, sir or madam, are an ass.

I think if you ask passengers who were on Air France in Toronto, wing walking in the Hudson River, or held hostage in Jamaica, for example, that you will find out that flight attendants do more than "demonstrate seat belt usage and serve juice and peanuts".

Double Wasp · Post by **Double Wasp** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:32 pm

gratefulsurvivor wrote:
Just another canuck wrote:The FA's don't deserve such a crap salary either, but let's face it, they demonstrate seat belt usage and serve juice and peanuts... but it wouldn't be fair to pay them 8000/year either. They're part of the team, but a not nearly as vital as the pilots. Technically, you could do the flight without FA's... you can't do without the pilots.
You, sir or madam, are an ass.

I think if you ask passengers who were on Air France in Toronto, wing walking in the Hudson River, or held hostage in Jamaica, for example, that you will find out that flight attendants do more than "demonstrate seat belt usage and serve juice and peanuts".

Great first post on this forum calling someone an ass!

If you would actually have read what you QUOTED he said that they are part of the team and he even apologized for his crudeness in a later post. We all know that the FA's do more that push cookies. He is saying that everyone deserves better pay but, I do agree that those at the front should be paid more than those in the back, don't you? After all you get what you pay for and pilots are making the decisions. While FA's play a very important role there would have been no wing walking what so ever if a competant pilot had not been at the controls to handle the situation in the first place.

Now lets all try to be constructive OK

DW

gratefulsurvivor · Post by **gratefulsurvivor** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:43 pm

He or she admitted they were crude but did not say that their assessment of the role of flight attendants was any different than stated in the quoted post.

True, the Hudson River incident could have been much worse if not for a skilled pilot. Is the same true for the other two referenced?

Double Wasp · Post by **Double Wasp** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:49 pm

This thread is called: "Poorly Paid, Often Tired, Junior Pilots" not "Flight Attendants: Hero's or Zero's"
If you want to start a discussion on this new topic why don't you start another thread instead of high jacking this one?
Just a thought.
DW
P.S.: I vote for Hero's

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:50 pm

True, the Hudson River incident could have been much worse if not for a skilled pilot.

Really?

gratefulsurvivor · Post by **gratefulsurvivor** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:56 pm

Being new to this forum, I admit I am unfamiliar with all the rules. Other forums I belong to address issues raised in a thread in that same thread. I trust that you have sent the same message to jeta1 who also quoted the same passage? I must have missed it.

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