Navajo crash on final for YVR?

[AirdogAlpha]

The term expert is one that I have asked not to be used, I prefer Aviation Correspondent/analyst, (which is how the network refers to me normally) it has been a running introduction around this story. Networks like experts... I don't. Currently, I am the Aviation Correspondent for the Discovery Channel and when asked, assist CTV. I have spent 12 years working for the Discovery Family, reviewing accidents, covering new projects and making programs about aviation and space, many about advances and incidents. I consider myself extremely lucky. When I have a question about an business strategy, new government policy, an accident, incident, technology I get paid to call up the the real experts,,, at Boeing, or TSB, or wherever and spend time with them... asking questions, learning; it is a huge privilege. Often these people are not allowed to go on camera, thus speak in background. This is my full time job... all I do everyday is read reports, makes calls, research new technologies, and fly. This doesn't make me an expert... but it does make me feel very very lucky to combine two things I love, but again I do make mistakes, mis-steps.

I have flown +30 types and started flying 33 years ago. I currently own three aircraft and sit on the board of directors of a busy growing Airport. I attempt not to jump to conclusions, but, attempt to provide context and understanding, drawn on research, past incidents, and information passed on to me by professionals with clear understandings of incidents. This is live television and occasionally I do slip up and the words come up wrong (especially after very long shift, or a middle of the night call to start working on a file). I try not to inflate the seriousness of incidents, if anything I attempt to turn the temperature down.
That said, the mass media may be one the our most effective tools. We can all agree that there is a great deal of misinformation and misunderstanding that creates an unwarrented fear around flying.

There are many people more qualified then me to speak, FOR SURE , unfortunately because of their jobs as investigators, pilots, AME's ect ect... most can not speak freely.

Whether we like it or not, the media is going to cover these stories. And for certain we need to let TSB/crash investigators do their jobs and issue fact based reports.... and we need to report those final reports.
But, when a story is on the front page in the NOW, news editors won't wait.
Your support, suggestions, corrections are and will always be greatly appreciated.

Finally, I am pretty new to this forum thing...
I regret making my comments earlier, as they took the discussion in a whole new direction..when a group of friends was mourning the loss of two of their own,
condolences to the friends and families to the two young men who lost their lives.


Please feel free to PM me..
Sorry for the typos...I am doing this on my IPHONE... from the hangar... not the best platform to fly a forum....

[aileron]

Hey guys just take a great big pill and ignore the noise out there. There will always be "experts", the talking heads who supposedly offer a translation of the subject to the ignorant public in all kinds of matters. I always chuckle when I see a poorly guided aviation movie scene or newscast... did you always notice when there is an accident (aviation wise) in the news, there will always be a follow up two punch, even three punch of other aviation accidents of the day. It sells, plain and simple. The fear of flying is out there (learned, not inherited) and when the public hears it, then the papers sell.

The news of the day, such as "THE ECONOMY" (hear the reverberating echo?) where the villains are the Madoffs, Subprime Mortgages, etc. A great place to point fingers and have rest in our mind of the mess around us (as reported, remember). You know how inaccurate the reports are of aviation, well guess what - so too are the news of the economy (not saying here that Madoff is a martyr at all though).

Right now the public wants to know, and you can't stop the insatiable thirst. The idle banter of "...so I wonder what happened..." will morph into "...you know I bet what happened..." even in our own camps eventually. This is the process of dealing with our grief, whether from a distance or from a personal standpoint. And it isn't surprising we're trying to point fingers and find a villain, like Miller. But come on people, we're better than that... grieve and heal, spend your energy more effectively.

[Widow]

I agree with Cat the others who appreciate your input, Mr. Miller. I would far rather have someone with some degree of knowledge and understanding of the industry advising the press, than see 'them' try to figure it all out for themselves.

That said, it is a difficult time for those affected - either because they may have known or loved those who have been so recently lost, or because they are reliving the time of their own loss.

The Beaver must be overcrowded after hours. RIP, all.

Kirsten S.

[Ranjency Dixonator]

widow,

you have nothing to do with aviation....GO AWAY..stop editing my posts, you sad sack old lady....It would be nice to grieve about lost friends and not have you get in your two cents and useless aviation opinion.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm a mod here and as such will edit posts of whomever when I see fit. Namecalling and vulgarities are unnecessary, especially in a thread such as this. Whether you like it or not, I do have "something" to do with aviation, and some value my opinion quite highly. If you want to complain about me, start a new thread - this isn't the place for that either. Oh, and I'm hardly an "old lady", and certainly no "sad sack". There will be an "official" warning next time. - Widow

And she is not necessarily the one who deleted your first post which, like this one violates the rules of this forum.
Hugs and kisses, lil

[rightseatwonder]

whoa.

[Cat Driver]

widow,

you have nothing to do with aviation....GO AWAY..stop editing my posts, you sad sack old lady....

You are stepping over the line Ranjency Dixonator because she does not deserve that type of comment.

Seeing as you are so anxious to meet someone face to face in the Flying Beaver to discuss these issues next time I'm in Vancouver we can meet in the Flying Beaver and you can have a go at me if you wish.

I'm used to dealing with people who have issues, and I'm not easily intimidated.

[Hey Piiilot]

I sure feel sorry for these guys. I didn't know them, the rumor is one of them was only 28 years old. It makes me remember the times I was out there in a piston twin in the middle of the night building time and chasing dreams. Then in an instant, regardless of the cause, all of it's lost. Then the media feeding frenzy starts, and the speculation. Sadly I feel the focus of this "reporting" is more to do with the sensationalism of the accident, rather than the accident investigation and preventative measure. Im not saying your doing this Mark, however this early media speculating (low and slow, wake turbulence etc.) I think is disrespectful to the pilots by perhaps implying blame. I also know this will never change as the public expects answers instantly. Sorry for the low blow about your "expert" title, however I have seen you introduced on TV before as an aviation expert. I have also seen you unable to land on the centerline over and over again on the Air Dogs show...

[balfour]

I think Ranj needs some time away from the Fourms.

It's too bad that the "good guys" always go.......when the world would be a better place without the likes of Ranj.

[petpad]

.

[marktheone]

Typical. This is why I don't post much on here anymore and why I have never posted in a forum regarding an accident.

Widow, as I have spoken to you on the phone and through email before, I ask for respect to the lost souls and the damage to all that this senseless thread be locked. As information developes I will share it with the intent of preventing further incidents of whatever nature this turns out to be.

Thank you,

Mark C. Wilcox
Canadian Air Charters INC.

[lilfssister]

In case you haven't noticed, I'm a mod here and as such will edit posts of whomever when I see fit

wow, notice taken, Mrs Stevens. Pulling some new-moderator muscle here Widow, deleting posts, changing texts, not even sure if this one will make it. Enough censorship please, I am losing track of posts, several I read are no longer there by the time I refresh the thread.

You agreed to these terms when joining this forum

you agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should they see fit.

There are 15 moderators here, so don't blame Widow for everything petpad.

[lilfssister]

I ask for respect to the lost souls and the damage to all that this senseless thread be locked. As information develops I will share it with the intent of preventing further incidents of whatever nature this turns out to be.

Thank you,

Mark C. Wilcox
Canadian Air Charters INC.

Done

[Widow]

Darcy Coonfer with Canadian Air Charters said the victims were company employees Jeremy Sunderland and Mathew Pedersen.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columb ... ctims.html

[pelmet]

http://tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/a ... 9p0187.asp

3.1 Findings as to Causes and Contributing Factors
1.APEX 511 turned onto the final approach course within the wake turbulence area behind and below the heavier aircraft and encountered its wake, resulting in an upset and loss of control at an altitude that precluded recovery.
2.The proximity of the faster trailing traffic limited the space available for APEX 511 to join the final approach course, requiring APEX 511 not to lag too far behind the preceding aircraft.

3.2 Findings as to Risk
1.The current wake turbulence separation standards may be inadequate. As air traffic volume continues to grow, there is a risk that wake turbulence encounters will increase.
2.Visual separation may not be an adequate defence to ensure that appropriate spacing for wake turbulence can be established or maintained, particularly in darkness.
3.Neither the pilots nor Canadian Air Charters (CAC) were required by regulation to account for employee duty time acquired at other non-aviation related places of employment. As a result, there was increased risk that pilots were operating while fatigued.
4.Not maintaining engine accessories in accordance with manufacturers' recommendations can lead to failure of systems critical to safety.

3.3 Other Finding
1.APEX 511 was not equipped with any type of cockpit recording devices, nor was it required to be. As a result, the level of collaboration and decision making discussion between the 2 pilots remains unknown.

[Carrier]

Quote: "3.Neither the pilots nor Canadian Air Charters (CAC) were required by regulation to account for employee duty time acquired at other non-aviation related places of employment. As a result, there was increased risk that pilots were operating while fatigued."

Presumably this refers to second jobs at fast food joints and similar that so many pilots have to take in order to make ends meet. The proper solution is to pay pilots a liveable salary. Until this happens pilots will continue to need second incomes. Regulation will not solve the problem as it will then go underground. Pilots also need to eat, pay rent, have clothes and heat, etc. and in the absence of their employer or regulator paying an appropriate salary they can be expected to do what they have to in order to get by, regardless of any regulations. That is reality!

[Rowdy]

4.Not maintaining engine accessories in accordance with manufacturers' recommendations can lead to failure of systems critical to safety

This is a rather vague fact. Perhaps someone can shed some light on what exactly they are reffering to.

[trampbike]

I'm guessing it refers to this, from section 1.4 of the report:

The operator was approved to follow the Piston Engine On-Condition Maintenance Program 2 as an alternate to the manufacturer's recommended hard time program. This is based on the premise that each part of an aircraft required periodic overhaul. Times between component overhaul were strictly controlled, and the entire aircraft was periodically disassembled, overhauled and re-assembled. The engine manufacturer prescribes a time before overhaul (TBO) of 1800 hours for this engine model. An overhaul would normally include engine accessories such as the engine-driven fuel pump.

With experience, it was concluded that some components did not require overhaul on a fixed time basis. Consequently, a second process evolved referred to as on-condition. This designation was assigned to components, such as engines, whose condition could be determined by visual inspection, measurement, testing or other means not involving disassembly or overhaul. 3 Under this program, the right-hand engine of the occurrence aircraft had accumulated 11 617 hours total time since new (TTSN) and 2531 hours time since overhaul (TSO). The left engine had 7548 hours TTSN and 3418 hours TSO.

Aircraft operators that have been approved for an on-condition maintenance program may, through the application of their maintenance schedule approval process, extend the intervals of repeat inspection criteria. This is based upon demonstrated reliability data established through the operator's reliability program. 4 Transport Canada (TC) Airworthiness Manual Advisory 571.101/1, Section 3c, provides guidance for reliability programs for operators of a fleet of 5 or more aircraft. The operator's fleet consisted of 6 Piper Chieftains. No reliability program records were maintained by the operator, which meant that the engine driven fuel pumps remained subject to a requirement to inspect the pumps at various time intervals outlined in the operator's maintenance program documentation and replaced or overhauled at the manufacturer's specifications.

Examination of the right-hand engine (Textron-Lycoming model LTIO-540-J2BD, s/n: L-2331-68A) revealed an anomaly with the engine-driven fuel pump drive splines, which were worn to the point of impending failure. The wear of the fuel pump drive splines will eventually result in the inability to drive the fuel pump, potentially resulting in an engine stopping due to fuel starvation any time the emergency electric fuel pump is not in use.

The engine manufacturer's (Lycoming Engines) position is that on-condition maintenance should not occur at intervals greater than those stated in the manufacturer recommendations. Specifically, the TBO should be used as the upper limit for on-condition actions.

The condition of the right-hand engine-driven fuel pump drive splines (Lear Romec, part number RJ9080J4A, serial number D-6872) indicates that it was operated beyond its overhaul life and was not subject to any inspection program to monitor its condition.

[Big Pistons Forever]

For most of the small Navajo operators, particularly the freighters, On condition really means run until failure. If you are lucky the engine gives a little warning but many times the engine fails in flight. TC has pretty much washed their hands of this segment of the industry as I do not see how an real indepth examination of engine failure occurances would allow the continuation of these kind of unlimited TBO extensions. When you see engines that are being operated at more than twice the recommended TBO, I just don't see how they can truly be considered safe to operate.

[human garbage]

For most of the small Navajo operators, particularly the freighters, On condition really means run until failure. If you are lucky the engine gives a little warning but many times the engine fails in flight. TC has pretty much washed their hands of this segment of the industry as I do not see how an real indepth examination of engine failure occurances would allow the continuation of these kind of unlimited TBO extensions. When you see engines that are being operated at more than twice the recommended TBO, I just don't see how they can truly be considered safe to operate.

QFT. It is not safe. On-condition is supposed to get you to the next overhaul, not supplant it.

Hurts to see this thread bumped back up... RIP Mat and Jer. You may be gone, but are not forgotten.