Upset training

[Hedley]

My bad - I meant with respect to propeller aircraft.

With all due respect to the snowbirds, I think it would
be a really bad idea for any one of them to jump into
a Pitts or Sukhoi and try to fly an Advanced or Unlimited
sequence without considerable training.

Even landing it would be quite an eye-opener for them.

[MichaelP]

I had a Bulgarian military pilot argue with me about doing rolls... It was with respect to the use of rudder as he had never needed it. He'd done all his training in jets.
The Cessna 152 proved to be a difficult beast

Eleven?
That's a cricket team.

[Brewguy]

Years ago, while working with the Air Cadet gliding program, we had a number of 'jet jocks' come out to go gliding before /after the Trenton air show. I had the pleasure of taking up a few of them, including Hornet pilots and a couple of US Navy guys (I believe they flew Intruders).

Anyways, for each and every one flying a glider on aero tow proved a challenge ... they just aren't accustomed to having to use rudder. Not that it's any more difficult, just an entirely different type of flying than what they do on a daily basis. Same thing when military types would come out to do training on the Extra 300 the first time. It's just different, and takes a while to get used to.

[Hedley]

A simple sportman hammerhead in a piston aircraft is
enough to drive a jet driver bonkers. Set the vertical,
feed in the right aileron, pivot with the left rudder, elevator
as required to oppose the gyroscopic effects of the
prop to maintain the vertical, and oh yeah power off
after the nose comes off vertical ...

Very different world. The jet guys simply aren't
used to wrestling with the effects of the propeller
at slow speed.

A formation aileron roll in high performance jets is a
joke. It's much, much harder in piston aircraft.

Also, it's much less easier to store kinetic energy, so
you have to do stuff RIGHT NOW if you're going to
get it done.

Tumbles and tailslides are not exactly common
maneuvers in (western) jets, either.

[RFlyer]

Are you one of the 10 highly skilled and experienced aerobatic pilots in Canada? Statistically, it is doubtful. I can count these people on the fingers of both hands.

You've got 10 fingers? I've only got 8 fingers and 2 thumbs.

There are eleven Snowbirds.

I'm splitting hairs here, but with fingers, you can count to 1023 (in binary). Not comfortable, but it can be done. With the fingers on one hand you can count to 31.

Edit: to fix a typo.

[Big Pistons Forever]

If your airplane is suddenly rolled/pitched to an extreme angle will you do the right thing ?
My experience is unless you have had upset training you will not. Accident statistics back me up. If your airplane is suddenly rolled upside down and you are close to the ground and/or going fast you will almost certainly die. This is because if you do not know what to do the best thing to do is to push on wheel. The problem is this is completely counter intuitive and that is why actual in the airplane upset training is so valuable, IMO you have to actually experience it to get it. I highly encourage all the pilots I train to go out and get upset training either as a stand alone course or as part of an aerobatic training course.

[sky's the limit]

All I know is that aerobatic training saved my life without question on a couple of occasions as bush pilot. I echo BPF's comment.

stl

[loopa]

Really good advice BPF and STL.

[Brewguy]

+1

This type of training is not a luxury purchase, nor a joy ride. Its an absolute must. Save up if you have to, but find a school or instructor that offers this training and take it as soon as you can!

In the meantime, read Rich Stowell's books:
Stall / Spin Awareness; and
Emergency Maneuver Training - Controlling Your Airplane During A Crisis.

[MichaelP]

This is of course related to the other thread.
767 is a Class 2 instructor, the next step is Class 1
I drew a picture of what might happen to a Class IV instructor flying with such a Class II's students...
It would be a very good idea if all Class IV 'wannabes' have upset training as part of their training.
Even without the fright of what some people might profess, upset and aerobatic training will raise an instructor's abilities well above that of the student's.

The danger is however that instructors will want to practice at the student's expense without relationship to the student's need at that time.

[ogc]

I have been thinking about doing some basic aerobatic training recently.

Can anyone recommend a school that teaches this kind of thing around the GTA? Preferably somewhere closer to Barrie?

Thanks!

[767]

If your airplane is suddenly rolled/pitched to an extreme angle will you do the right thing ?
My experience is unless you have had upset training you will not. Accident statistics back me up. If your airplane is suddenly rolled upside down and you are close to the ground and/or going fast you will almost certainly die. This is because if you do not know what to do the best thing to do is to push on wheel. The problem is this is completely counter intuitive and that is why actual in the airplane upset training is so valuable, IMO you have to actually experience it to get it. I highly encourage all the pilots I train to go out and get upset training either as a stand alone course or as part of an aerobatic training course.

So what recovery procedure do you reccomend in this situation?

[Big Pistons Forever]

767

For the theory of upset recovery, rather than a long post from me, I recommend you read the Rich Stowell book that Brewguy mentioned in his earlier posts. However this is not a topic which lends itself to book learning. You must instead develop instinctive responses which can IMO only be inculcated with actual practice in an airplane.

[On condition]

The most unnatural feeling is to be hanging in your seat belt upside down (even though you previously tightened it) pushing forward on the stick in some low performance aerobatic plane (like an Aerobat). Think of how much worse it will be with a loose seat belt and an even worse performing aircraft.

EMT has already saved my life one and I am thankful to a former employer who provided it for me free of charge.

[Brewguy]

...However this is not a topic which lends itself to book learning...

I agree 100%.

My recommending that book was in preparation of completing actual in-aircraft training. To me, the key to getting the most bang for your buck out of in-aircraft EMT training is very thorough ground briefings.

For those not accustomed to it, aerobatics & unusual attitudes may make you feel a little off the first few flights. So, go in with a solid understanding of the theory, brief the heck out of the flight, once up - get straight into the exercises, then get your butt back on the ground and have a good debrief.

[MichaelP]

I have found many instructors do not tighten their lap straps properly.
Students see and do what the instructor does.
It is very very important that the lapstrap is always done up tight and over the hips/below the belly button.

When I learned aerobatics in the Stampe, open cockpit, I had to put my feet on the floor, and fold my arms while the bloke up front rolled the aeroplane inverted.
There's nothing over my head but the ground 3,000 feet 'above' me and gravity trying to take me there!
In this way you gained confidence in the straps and the ability to whizz the aeroplane around the sky without worrying about the straps.

[Big Pistons Forever]

...However this is not a topic which lends itself to book learning...

I agree 100%.

My recommending that book was in preparation of completing actual in-aircraft training. To me, the key to getting the most bang for your buck out of in-aircraft EMT training is very thorough ground briefings.

For those not accustomed to it, aerobatics & unusual attitudes may make you feel a little off the first few flights. So, go in with a solid understanding of the theory, brief the heck out of the flight, once up - get straight into the exercises, then get your butt back on the ground and have a good debrief.

Absolutely agree and I did not mean to imply understanding the theory was not important only that it must be paired with flight training to be meaningfull. I recommended reading Stowells book because he does a far better job of explaining the theory than I could.

[767]

767

For the theory of upset recovery, rather than a long post from me, I recommend you read the Rich Stowell book that Brewguy mentioned in his earlier posts. However this is not a topic which lends itself to book learning. You must instead develop instinctive responses which can IMO only be inculcated with actual practice in an airplane.

Thanks, will do that.. And just another question about unusual attitudes. When aircraft enters a "nose up, climbing turn" attitude, what recovery procedure do you use?

[Shiny Side Up]

This is of course related to the other thread.
767 is a Class 2 instructor, the next step is Class 1

God help us.

The danger is however that instructors will want to practice at the student's expense without relationship to the student's need at that time.

Much like self defence training, upset training is to be used when you need to, you don't go out seeking places to use it. If I only had a nickel for the times I've heard about instructors who felt the need to do a spin on an introductory flight, or irresponsible pilots out there feeling the need to show off their prowess much to the terror of some unsuspecting passengers.

That being said, I whole-heartedly agree that training in this regard is well worth while. It has been supremely helpful in my time as an instructor, all I can say is never underestimate what a student might suddenly do with the controls, not all of them have a very good sense of self preservation and whom might succumb to the panic reflex isn't always apparent.

[floatplanepilot]

Thanks, will do that.. And just another question about unusual attitudes. When aircraft enters a "nose up, climbing turn" attitude, what recovery procedure do you use?

Kick, Pull, Hold

Sorry... I just thought you should end it quick after reading some of your other posts.

[Hvd2Pilot]

I'd like to take upset training and aerobatic training. However, I've always been afraid of an incompetent instructor. The aerobatic guys I know aren't instructors, that I know of, they are proficient competitive aerobatic pilots or airshow performers. I may see them once a year. The last thing I want is to screw up a maneuver, end up in an inverted spin, and have 767 yell in my helmet to add power. Keep your parachute packer happy, don't be late paying him!

Other than my annual clinic, I don't know who to trust.

[AEROBAT]

You don't need an aerobatic instructor rating to teach aerobatics, you only need it to charge money for teaching. If you have a buddy with a lot of aerobatic time and 10 hours acro in the last 6 months he can do acro with a passenger legaly. The hard part is finding a plane to do it in.

[cgzro]

I'd like to take upset training and aerobatic training. However, I've always been afraid of an incompetent instructor. The aerobatic guys I know aren't instructors, that I know of, they are proficient competitive aerobatic pilots or airshow performers. I may see them once a year. The last thing I want is to screw up a maneuver, end up in an inverted spin, and have 767 yell in my helmet to add power. Keep your parachute packer happy, don't be late paying him!

Other than my annual clinic, I don't know who to trust.

I've only done training with Airshow and Competition pilots and found them to be universally fantastic instructors. They tend to be much older, teaching for pleasure not money and usually have access to much better and better maintained planes.

Peter

[MichaelP]

I've only done training with Airshow and Competition pilots and found them to be universally fantastic instructors.

This is not my experience...
There are some competition pilots who are also excellent instructors but there are an awful lot who while being excellent pilots themselves cannot pass it on.
The biggest problem for the aerobatic competition pilot is being able to go back to the beginner level.

It is very easy to do aerobatics in a high powered aeroplane with brutal movements of the stick flicking, tumbling, and lomcevaking all over the sky. It is not so easy to do a slow roll at low speed as if you were rolling off the top of a loop.

I have flown with 'students' who have been trained by advanced and unlimited aerobatic pilots and who have missed the fundamentals.
Do 5/8 of a loop and roll on the 45 and this lack of fundamental training will show up.
In the Extra, using aileron, you'll roll on the point with no effort in a split second.
But in a CAP or a Decathlon you need to use all of the controls to accurately roll on the point and maintain heading and 45 degree angle.

So in the Extra a couple of weeks ago I rolled from 100KIAS, slowly, and this took a lot of effort to do with a steady slow roll rate and smoothly.
The student who'd originally been trained in 'violent' advanced aerobatics from the beginning had missed the fundamentals that an aerobatic instructor can instil from the beginning.
We rolled upside down to see where the nose should be when passing the inverted, and then tried it several times.

I used to do the same in the Yak 52 with another pilot who while being able to bang people's heads against the canopy could not do a slow roll.
Same story... Lack of fundamentals... He'd say "I don't know how much rudder I used in that roll", and I'd once again lead him through a slow roll that rather than using the rapid roll rate available used the accurate control such ailerons gave instead.

[AEROBAT]

Aerobatics is practice, practice and more practice. If you have a single seat plane you need someone on the ground watching what you are doing and observing your manouvers to see if what you think you are doing is anything like what is actually happening! I have people tell me they can do loops with only 2 G. Well it sure would not be a very round loop.

I would like to say that everyone should have to take the basic 5 hour aerobatic course to complete a commercial licence, however I think we have more than enough regulation in Canada now without adding additional hoops to jump through.

I think the former Warsaw Pact countries pushed aerobatics a lot more than we do, but they were running on taxpayers money to train pilots.