GEAR UP LANDINGS

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Will you ever land with the gear up?

Poll ended at Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:26 am

Never!
28
23%
Maybe, but very unlikely.
73
60%
At some point in my career, very likely.
1
1%
Been there, done that already.
5
4%
I don't fly with retractable gear.
15
12%
 
Total votes: 122

sky's the limit
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by sky's the limit »

Just so the two posts are together:
Wow,

I've refrained from reading through this thread as I no longer fly retractable gear aircraft, but I once did. Regardless, it's not just gear positioning issues we're discussing here, it's human fallibility and deviation from routine.

Most FW applications are SOP driven, the same day in day out with high levels of routine. Becoming habituated to something may preclude many mistakes, but throw in a few factors like fatigue, irregular operations/circumstances, stress, etc, etc, and you find VERY quickly that interruption of routine - no matter how minor - can have catastrophic consequences.

The post above by Nimbostratus is bang on.

I'm sitting here reading this shaking my head at the number of guys/gals choosing "Never" and trying to back it up with all kinds of rationale. I just don't get it, are your egos that large where it prevents you from seeing how easy it is to make errors of any kind? In my world we're involved in extremely fluid operations where routine is almost never regular and the probability of mistakes is very high, and we're involved in operations like bucketing forest fires that CAN be very routine. We just lost (another) high time, experienced pilot the other day with experiences under his belt that many of you cannot imagine - in a routine application that had a few curveballs thrown in that day.

If it can happen, it can happen to anyone and to think otherwise is nothing short of arrogant. For God's sake don't go around thinking you're above it. We are all one start away from making the mistake that can end in the worst possible way. You, me, the AME's who fix our machines, the customers we deal with, the lot. Some applications are more susceptible than others, but they are all susceptible in one way or another.

My two cents.

stl



I just walked out to the machine and had another few thoughts on this.

There is another thread going concurrent to this about "High Time" pilots, the two are very directly related.

Most of my career has been spent in the types of applications that I described above as "fluid," but not all. Either way it doesn't matter as regardless of what I may be asked to do, from setting towers on top of mountains, to bucketing fires, toeing in geologists or loggers on rock faces or slippery stumps, I have developed a method or an approach that works for me and has kept me safe.

I have had no accidents in may career with almost daily opportunity for them - does that mean my routine or my approach to any given situation is accident proof? I think not. My method has worked to keep me accident free thus far, but the ONLY indication that my method works is that fact. Who's to say the right set of circumstances won't prove my method to have some flaws, possibly fatal ones? Nobody.

I may encounter those circumstances today with my fire crew, or I may never, either way there is no proof that I won't forget something or assume something to be safe (for years) which is not, and thus further habituate myself into thinking I am doing my best to cover all the bases... until one day I'm proven wrong.

Nor is there any proof that any of your methods will, with certainty, preclude a gear-up.

stl
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

There is a saying:

" Pride goeth before a fall "
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After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by swordfish »

There's little justifiable reason that a pilot (or crew) should land gear-up, as there are several built-in redundancies to alert the crew:
  • 1. Throttle or power lever switch in the quadrant.
    2. The need to silence the aural warning when the flaps are extended to approach without the gear down.
    3. The impossibility of silencing the horn when the flaps are selected beyond the "first" position, or the approach position, without the gear being locked down.
    4. The position of the gear selector.
    5. The RED indicator lights staring you in the face when you retard the power levers to land.
    6. Visual check, where possible.
    7. And last but not least: your SOP or checklist.
For those of you who feel the need to grease every landing on with the assistance of some power, let me offer you a few thoughts on the inadvisability of this:
  • 1. The quality of the touchdown is usually forgotten by your passengers about 1 minute after the fact, as they are all worrying about their transportation logistics, what they're having for dinner, or getting laid.
    2. The landing is about 1% of the job; how you get it there is another 75% of the job.
    3. LEAVING THE POWER LEVERS ADVANCED FROM IDLE DEFEATS THE LANDING GEAR AURAL WARNING SYSTEM on many types, particularly the commuter and airline types.
    4. Of course, there are rare occasions when you need to land with some power on, and even rarer occasions when you need to land with partial flaps.
I hate being so blunt, but a 4-page thread seems to demand it.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Sidebar »

swordfish wrote:There's little justifiable reason that a pilot (or crew) should land gear-up, as there are several built-in redundancies to alert the crew:
  • 1. Throttle or power lever switch in the quadrant.
    2. The need to silence the aural warning when the flaps are extended to approach without the gear down.
    3. The impossibility of silencing the horn when the flaps are selected beyond the "first" position, or the approach position, without the gear being locked down.
    4. The position of the gear selector.
    5. The RED indicator lights staring you in the face when you retard the power levers to land.
    6. Visual check, where possible.
    7. And last but not least: your SOP or checklist.
So why does it happen?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

Brain Farts

Blind adherence to SOP's and checklists can, and do, at times rise up, and bite you.
What IF an item is not on/or missed on a checklist? The "assumption" that a checklist is complete, when in fact, it is not, has led to some really red faces.
If you NEED a checklist to spark your memory on such, lets face it, no-brainers as putting the gear down, you ARE going to leave it up.
Do you need a checklist to remember to RAISE the gear? Really hope not. Yet, many pilots use a checklist as a "read and do" item, rather a "check" after the fact, that things, indeed HAVE been done.
Do YOU need a checklist to remember to wipe your ass? You always manage to wipe your ass without a checklist. I've met very few folks who, after taking a dump, have forgotten to do the "paper work".
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by trampbike »

Come on Doc... You're talking like the people landing gear up did not really "understand" the importance of lowering the gear and were not intelligent enough to process this concept in their monkey brains.

We all know there are some not so bright pilots, but forgetting the landing gear has nothing to do with that. Everyone understands it has do be down when landing. Everyone. And everyone think it would be almost impossible for them to forget such a basic thing. Yet it happens. Some awesome pilots landed gear up. Some average and bad pilots did too, but I'm still pretty sure it was not because they did not know the importance of a proper landing gear configuration when landing.

Nobody can say they are not affected by any human factors.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

Can anyone explain to me why there is such a large difference in the number of gear up landings between small airplanes and the big airplanes flown by the airlines?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Shiny Side Up »

. . wrote:Can anyone explain to me why there is such a large difference in the number of gear up landings between small airplanes and the big airplanes flown by the airlines?
Short answer is the people. Before people get to the airlines they get all their gear up landings out of their system on small airplanes.

1) Small airplanes are more likely to be flown single crew as opposed to two crew. It probably isn't recorded how many times the second set of eyes made the difference between gear up and gear down.

2) Small airplanes are more likely to be operating out of rough strips and areas where FOD might be present. I know of two landing gear retraction issues that I've seen personally.

3) Small airplanes generally get less care and attention. Especially in the privately owned category. Its a shame how many little airplanes don't fly between their annuals, and some are lucky to get annuals. Like all mechanical devices subjected to neglect their reliability decreases over time - retractable landing gear are no exception.

4) Small airplanes are more likely to be flown as initial trainers, or as step up airplanes. That is to say the first retractable someone flies. As before, most pilots will probably live through a gear up landing - which they subject to some little plane - and are probably less likely to do one again, at least one would hope.

But then, you probably already knew this .. :wink:
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by JigglyBus »

Two crew versus one crew.
800 hrs/year versus 80 hrs/year
Strict SOP's versus No SOP's
Complex Warning Systems (gpws etc) versus no systems.
10000 hr pilots versus 500 hr pilots.

How many more reasons are you looking for??
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

JigglyBus wrote:Two crew versus one crew.
800 hrs/year versus 80 hrs/year
Strict SOP's versus No SOP's
Complex Warning Systems (gpws etc) versus no systems.
10000 hr pilots versus 500 hr pilots.

How many more reasons are you looking for??
One at a time.
The Be100 crew probably had..
more like 800 hours a year than 80
very good SOP's and checklists, plus company training
the warning systems required by Beech for gear. (GPWS has nothing to do with gear position)
probably several thousand hours....at least way more than 500 hours

Got any more relevant "reasons"?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Four1oh »

. . wrote:Can anyone explain to me why there is such a large difference in the number of gear up landings between small airplanes and the big airplanes flown by the airlines?
That's an easy one ., based on my personal experiences, it's because there's 2 experienced, qualified guys up front in addition to the airplane's built-in warning system.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

Four1oh wrote:
. . wrote:Can anyone explain to me why there is such a large difference in the number of gear up landings between small airplanes and the big airplanes flown by the airlines?
That's an easy one ., based on my personal experiences, it's because there's 2 experienced, qualified guys up front in addition to the airplane's built-in warning system.
That's not such an "easy one"....there were two crew in the latest King Air 100 gear up. And, rest assured, they were fully trained. Two crew is by no means a safety device, in a lot of cases. Every stupid mistake made by the airlines in recent years, have involved two crew members. Be it, attempting a takeoff on the wrong runway, not using full throttle to fly over, rather than under a certain bridge. The list goes on. Landing in the Everglades. Running out of fuel over New York City.....
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by iflyforpie »

Yeah, but we've got a four page thread bashing one specific two-crew gear up landing, and another page about the same operator (and incident) regarding their contrail dilemma.

I am wondering how many private guys in the mean time have re-contoured their belly skins?
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by JigglyBus »

Doc, as usual, you lost me there...

I was answering this question.....

"Can anyone explain to me why there is such a large difference in the number of gear up landings between small airplanes and the big airplanes flown by the airlines?"

And GPWS has nothing to do with gear position on "big airplanes flown by the airlines"???

News to me.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

I was under the impression that GPWS was to prevent CFIT.

Would putting your gear down before flying into a mountain make any difference?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by JigglyBus »

Is landing with the gear up not controlled flight into terrain?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by fanspeed »

. . wrote:I was under the impression that GPWS was to prevent CFIT.

Would putting your gear down before flying into a mountain make any difference?
Covered under Mode 4 of GPWS or TAWS. Unsafe terrain clearance and not configured.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by 2R »

Maybe they forgot to use the checklist ?
Or maybe they had memorised the checklist and left that item out ?
Has anyone asked them ?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by JigglyBus »

who are you talking about?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Pratt X 3 »

GPWS: an overview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_pro ... ing_system
Aircraft example
http://www.boeing-727.com/Data/systems/infogpws.html
(Please note mode 4 gives both gear and flap warnings in relation to height above ground.)
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

O.K. I will concede that GPWS may prevent landing a small airplane with the gear up as long as the GPWS is configured with the proper gear warning system.

There is that nagging little problem of cost to install it, the last airplane I was involved with as far as flying goes was a Twin Otter on floats that had a GPWS system but it did not have a gear warning function and it cost $220,000.00 USD to install.

How many operators of small airplanes can afford that kind of money?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by JigglyBus »

But ., your question was regarding the difference between large airliners and small planes, wasn't it?
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Chuck Ellsworth »

But ., your question was regarding the difference between large airliners and small planes, wasn't it?
Yes, and I am only pointing out that GPWS is to expensive to install in small airplanes.

However all airplanes should have a check list in them and proper use of same would ensure you don't land with the gear in the wrong position for the surface you are landing on.

Here is a question for you JigglyBus.

Which in your opinion should ensure the gear is selected in the proper position for landing.

An airplane with GPWS.?

An airplane with two pilots?
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The most difficult thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

After over a half a century of flying I can not remember even one trip that I refused to do that resulted in someone getting killed because of my decision not to fly.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by JigglyBus »

., I'm not trying to prescribe any particular solution.

You simply asked a question "
. . wrote:Can anyone explain to me why there is such a large difference in the number of gear up landings between small airplanes and the big airplanes flown by the airlines?
And I gave you an answer (in my opinion)
JigglyBus wrote:Two crew versus one crew.
800 hrs/year versus 80 hrs/year
Strict SOP's versus No SOP's
Complex Warning Systems (gpws etc) versus no systems.
10000 hr pilots versus 500 hr pilots.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm saying something other than the pilots should ensure the gear is down. To infer that my mention of GPWS or two crew means that I think that is 'the solution'... is just ridiculous.
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Re: GEAR UP LANDINGS

Post by Doc »

JigglyBus wrote:Is landing with the gear up not controlled flight into terrain?
Every landing is "controlled flight into terrain". Some, are just more controlled, than others.....
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