Calling out Hedley

[mag check]

Id like to poll how many here have gym memberships, pay insurance, Union fees, magazine subscriptions, fishing licenses, buy gas for their car...oh man, this argument is almost too foolish to exist...

All of the above require payment before using...if you dont use it, whose fault is that?

You have missed the point completely.

You are not required to buy a fishing license just because you own a rod. You are not forced to buy a magazine just because you like to read, and you aren't forced to buy gas for a car that you don't drive.
If you buy a gym membership, then you are at least planning on going to the gym, but having your name on a c of r doesn't mean that you are intending to use Nav Canada.

I am confused as to why around 4000 of the 31000 aircraft in Canada aren't required to pay for Nav Canada services, even if they use the system 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and others who never use the system once get charged a minimum of $68.

Can anyone from Nav Canada answer that?

[the_professor]

When I use the service I should pay but not a second before...period!

Do I pre pay my dentist because I might need his services next year? How about my auto insurance company, should I pre pay my deductible now just incase also?

What a pile of crap paying Nav Canada for something I don't use. It's a tax on the owner plain and simple.

N2, you're missing the point. As GN accurately stated, you cannot simply start up an ANS on the day that people decide to start using it. It has to be there at all times. It is considered an essential service.

Besides, anyone who owns a plane and then complains about a $68 annual fee is a moron. I mean, really? Jesus.

[the_professor]

hey prof,

Any chance we would get a refund for our ANS charges for THIS flight?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/08/ ... 80709.html

We just weren't totally happy with the service provided. God bless TCAS.

Does military pay Nav Canada airspace fees? I'm not sure. They may be exempt, like state aircraft are.

[the_professor]

GN, your argument is flawed.

Is Navcanada a government service or not? If you pay and you never use the service, its a tax. If I buy a cell phone and I don't use it, I don't have to pay any fees on it. Same for guys who own aircraft and never use Navcanada's fees. I can wire up my house for hydro but if I don't connect, I don't pay.

It a f*cking tax. Tell me what happens if you own an aircraft and you don't pay your bill and you don't use their services?

Same to you, Professor, with bells on.

It is an essential service, but it is not provided by the government.

[the_professor]

Yet I am expected to pay the same price for services as a plane that flies IFR over 100 hours in the same year. Does that seem fair?

I have no problem with user pay but when I don't use the services why should I pay?

You don't pay. An IFR aircraft that flies 100 times a year is charged for each and every flight. The charge is determined by the amount of time you spend in a given airspace.

The annual registration fee is f*ck-all, and everyone pays it no matter how often the plane flies.

So you're NOT paying the same as a 100 flight/year aircraft -- not even close. So quit whining.

[tesox2]

I am confused as to why around 4000 of the 31000 aircraft in Canada aren't required to pay for Nav Canada services, even if they use the system 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and others who never use the system once get charged a minimum of $68

Quoted from NavCanada Customer Guide to Charges

NOTE: Aircraft that are not flown at all during the annual fee period, i.e., out of service for the entire year due to storage, engine overhaul, repairs, modifications, etc., are not subject to the annual charges, provided the aircraft operator completes a form declaring the inactive status of the aircraft (contact a Customer Service Representative). Supporting documentation satisfactory to NAV CANADA may also be required.

Regarding exempt charges, please provide a specific example that you find innapropriate as per appendix C in the Customer Guide to Charges...most as I have read seem quite logical.
Cheers,
T2

[N2]

Yet I am expected to pay the same price for services as a plane that flies IFR over 100 hours in the same year. Does that seem fair?

I have no problem with user pay but when I don't use the services why should I pay?

You don't pay. An IFR aircraft that flies 100 times a year is charged for each and every flight. The charge is determined by the amount of time you spend in a given airspace.

The annual registration fee is f*ck-all, and everyone pays it no matter how often the plane flies.

So you're NOT paying the same as a 100 flight/year aircraft -- not even close. So quit whining.

Perhaps you would like to check your facts again there Prof! According to Nav Canada's own site taking a RV7 from YKZ to YRP does not entail any extra fees as you had indicated. Personally I think you are just looking for someone to argue with.

Here is the link if you would like to check it out.
http://www.navcanada.ca/contentDefiniti ... r/calc.asp

[the_professor]

Perhaps you would like to check your facts again there Prof! According to Nav Canada's own site taking a RV7 from YKZ to YRP does not entail any extra fees as you had indicated. Personally I think you are just looking for someone to argue with.

Here is the link if you would like to check it out.
http://www.navcanada.ca/contentDefiniti ... r/calc.asp

I guess I should have been more specific; I was trying to make a point for the whiner in question.

But you bring up a good point: Aircraft weighing three tons or less will not be charged for movements through certain airspace, even though NC ATC services are used. So these aircraft actually fly for free, as in your RV7 example.

Even further proof that the bitchers and complainers out there should STFU and enjoy the free ride.

[tesox2]

[quote="the_professor"]Even further proof that the bitchers and complainers out there should STFU and enjoy the free ride.
[quote="N2"]

Hey Prof, maybe your approach to this argument is a little overly aggressive. There are ways of having constructive conversations without constantly sounding off...you are really discrediting yourself by acting the way you are.

[dcabrown]

I have no idea who the participants are in this debate/argument, but heres a report (its somewhat out of date) that may help provide some info on nav canada. its written by some colleagues of mine at my work. Unfortunately I can not post the most recent version of this.

hopefully the attachment works...

D

[dcabrown]

If there are any questions on that NavCanada report, I can ask the lead authors who work down the hall from me...

[the_professor]

Hey Prof, maybe your approach to this argument is a little overly aggressive. There are ways of having constructive conversations without constantly sounding off...you are really discrediting yourself by acting the way you are.

Facts are facts and I will not apologize for the way I present them. I would be less likely to be aggressive if morons like Hedley (and many others on here) didn't make nonsensical arguments/claims to begin with, and then refuse to acknowledge their shortcomings, while directing personal attacks at myself or Nav Canada employees.

I guess sometimes you just can't fix the "stupid" in people. Hopefully this thread has educated a few as to how good they've got it.

[Hedley]

Arguing with NavCan nutjobs is like getting hate
mail from Hugo Chavez.

Who cares?

It doesn't matter what data I dig up, or how eloquent
my arguments are about double taxation, his mind is
made up, and nothing I do or say will change it, so
why waste my time on someone like him?

[the_professor]

Arguing with NavCan nutjobs is like getting hate
mail from Hugo Chavez.

Who cares?

It doesn't matter what data I dig up, or how eloquent
my arguments are about double taxation, his mind is
made up, and nothing I do or say will change it, so
why waste my time on someone like him?

Still waiting for you to explain how a $38M fuel tax qualifies as double-taxation for a company whose operating budget is

#1) over a billion dollars per year, and,
#2) does not receive any of that revenue, and,
#3) does not have the power to charge a tax.

Your logic and reasoning is so flawed that it makes me question the rest of the "informed advice" that you post on this site...

Go back to the chair on your front deck and yell at the kids on your lawn, grandpa...

[Hedley]

If I personally purchased enough fuel to pay TEN MILLION
dollars in fuel excise tax, yet only flew in uncontrolled airspace
and availed myself of no Navcan services whatsoever ...

You would still claim that I wasn't paying my "fair share"
because that wasn't enough to pay for ALL of NavCan

Hate mail from Hugo Chavez, indeed.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Go back to the chair on your front deck and yell at the kids on your lawn, grandpa...

That is your way of winning an argument?

And you have the gall to suggest others are ignorant.

[complexintentions]

hey prof,

Any chance we would get a refund for our ANS charges for THIS flight?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/08/ ... 80709.html

We just weren't totally happy with the service provided. God bless TCAS.

Does military pay Nav Canada airspace fees? I'm not sure. They may be exempt, like state aircraft are.

Umm, that's nice. I don't fly for the Canadian Forces, the other guys. The ones that had to execute the RA with a few hundred people on board. We expect that going into Lagos, not over BC.

So how about that refund?

[the_professor]

Go back to the chair on your front deck and yell at the kids on your lawn, grandpa...

That is your way of winning an argument?

And you have the gall to suggest others are ignorant.

edit: No, I win arguments by presenting irrefutable data that shows the ridiculous nature of Hedley's complaints. See post #1 in this thread.

Sorry ., didn't mean to slight all grey-hairs with one stroke!

[the_professor]

hey prof,

Any chance we would get a refund for our ANS charges for THIS flight?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/08/ ... 80709.html

We just weren't totally happy with the service provided. God bless TCAS.

Does military pay Nav Canada airspace fees? I'm not sure. They may be exempt, like state aircraft are.

Umm, that's nice. I don't fly for the Canadian Forces, the other guys. The ones that had to execute the RA with a few hundred people on board. We expect that going into Lagos, not over BC.

So how about that refund?

Canadian controllers sometimes make mistakes and miss conflicts. That's why TCAS exists. Glad to see that it worked properly in this case.

[the_professor]

If I personally purchased enough fuel to pay TEN MILLION
dollars in fuel excise tax, yet only flew in uncontrolled airspace
and availed myself of no Navcan services whatsoever ...

You would still claim that I wasn't paying my "fair share"
because that wasn't enough to pay for ALL of NavCan

Hate mail from Hugo Chavez, indeed.

How did you check weather or avail yourself of any applicable NOTAMS before this flight in uncontrolled airspace? Or are you flying in violation of the CARS on this particular flight? See GN's post above.

[complexintentions]

lol

Seeing as the airlines are paying the fees that help to pay your salary, I guess you're entitled to the sweet sum of F all. (Impotent ranting on the internet aside). Ultimately the airplanes are not there to serve you, but the other way around. Can't have it both ways old man: enjoying the sweet feeling of smug superiority, at the same time complaining about the lesser pilot mortals not being up to the superhuman abilities of controllers. So pick one! Just be sure to hope that if its the former, you're never the one at the screen for something like the "604 meets B777", or one of the other deals. It hurts more the higher you fall from.

Ahhhh MURRAY...how I miss your lovely stomping grounds now that the ugly slug of a aircraft the 380 is running to YYZ...

[B-rad]

ANyone else gonna be as pleased as me once this thread dies?? I miss bitching about the 55$ med fee with TC. Especially since I have the letter in front of me today

[tesox2]

Hockey pool officially starts tonight! Man Im happy for hockey season!

[B-rad]

Nucks fan?

[Brewguy]

...How did you check weather or avail yourself of any applicable NOTAMS before this flight in uncontrolled airspace? Or are you flying in violation of the CARS on this particular flight? ...

What makes you think Heldey would check the weather?