There is no aural warning that the aircraft has passed the TOD, there is only a written message generated by the FMGC. When the aircraft reaches the end of the route it switches from managed navigation to heading (or track if it is selected), but no audio alert is issued in that case either. In order to get either of those messages the crew would have to be looking at the MCDU and FMA.
I don't know about ACARS message alerts as that may be specific to the airline. The cabin call however is a loud, obnoxious noise that cannot be missed even if you are semi-comatose. I believe though that the pilots responded to that and subsequently discovered their error.
Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
I think the 320 it's a subtle "ping". very soft. In the Boeing as well...however I can't remember IF the cabin handheld unit in the Airbus had an "EMER" button that rings 3 times. However I KNOW the Boeing products had that feature.Changes in Latitudes wrote:What does the FA call sound like in the 320? Apparently the FA's made numerous attempts to contact the flight deck with no response. Pretty hard to talk over that call chime in the aircraft I fly.
I tried to find a soundbite on the net for you. They are all over on the net but you have to download it.
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Unfortunately Legacy you have done just what you said that you would hate to do, you have jumped to conclusions. From your post you haven't flown a 320 so you are just speculating on a number of items you list.Legacy wrote:I would hate to jump to conclusions on this one but here is what I know:
1) If I had to guestimate, I would say more than 90% of ATC calls are heard and responded to.
2) A chime from the FA's IS loud enough to hear even though you are on your laptop or reading paper, etc
3) The chime from the ACARS IS loud enough to includes number 2 above
4) I am not sure about airbus but anyone that flies them please pipe in. When reaching a TOD or end of route on the FMS a lighting system of some sort will alert you to this (at least the boeing does).
5) If they were BOTH on their laptop what really are the chances that BOTH would miss 1-4 above.
6) Even if they were preoccupied doing something else what are the chances of both of them NEVER taking a quick boo at the ND for a quick glimpse in the course of an hour and a half.
These are just the quick things that popped in my head. There is definitely (well 99.999999999%) something that isn't being told. Personally I don't think there is any way they could be on their laptops and miss the above. Why did it take this long for anyone to say anything. Did they work out some kind of deal with the airline that if they admit they didn't fall asleep they would be paid off or something? Look how negatively the fatigue issue affected the 400Q in buffalo. The public probably thought the comapny pushed their pilots too hard. I don't know but obviously something is not being told here.
For both of them, if they had admitted that they both fell asleep and tried the fatigue card the consequences might be less than what it appears that they will be facing now, licences pulled and terminated from their jobs.
I seriously doubt that there is any collusion between the Company and the pilots, it would be a crap shoot by the pilots to try to do that and I am pretty sure that the Company would never entertain an idea like that.
As bad as it is for them right now, and I am not trying to defend them here, but it does show abit of integrity on their part by coming out and saying what actually happened rather than trying to concoct a story to try and cover their mistake.
I think they will be hung out to dry, and they have nobody to blame but themselves.
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Tens of thousands of airbus pilots wish it was a nice soft "ping". It's not.I am Birddog wrote:I think the 320 it's a subtle "ping". very soft.
It's a loud obnoxious buzzer designed to give you a headache if you ignore it.
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godsrcrazy
- Rank 8
- Posts: 862
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:12 pm
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Pratt wrote:Unfortunately Legacy you have done just what you said that you would hate to do, you have jumped to conclusions. From your post you haven't flown a 320 so you are just speculating on a number of items you list.Legacy wrote:I would hate to jump to conclusions on this one but here is what I know:
1) If I had to guestimate, I would say more than 90% of ATC calls are heard and responded to.
2) A chime from the FA's IS loud enough to hear even though you are on your laptop or reading paper, etc
3) The chime from the ACARS IS loud enough to includes number 2 above
4) I am not sure about airbus but anyone that flies them please pipe in. When reaching a TOD or end of route on the FMS a lighting system of some sort will alert you to this (at least the boeing does).
5) If they were BOTH on their laptop what really are the chances that BOTH would miss 1-4 above.
6) Even if they were preoccupied doing something else what are the chances of both of them NEVER taking a quick boo at the ND for a quick glimpse in the course of an hour and a half.
These are just the quick things that popped in my head. There is definitely (well 99.999999999%) something that isn't being told. Personally I don't think there is any way they could be on their laptops and miss the above. Why did it take this long for anyone to say anything. Did they work out some kind of deal with the airline that if they admit they didn't fall asleep they would be paid off or something? Look how negatively the fatigue issue affected the 400Q in buffalo. The public probably thought the comapny pushed their pilots too hard. I don't know but obviously something is not being told here.
For both of them, if they had admitted that they both fell asleep and tried the fatigue card the consequences might be less than what it appears that they will be facing now, licences pulled and terminated from their jobs.
I seriously doubt that there is any collusion between the Company and the pilots, it would be a crap shoot by the pilots to try to do that and I am pretty sure that the Company would never entertain an idea like that.
As bad as it is for them right now, and I am not trying to defend them here, but it does show abit of integrity on their part by coming out and saying what actually happened rather than trying to concoct a story to try and cover their mistake.
I think they will be hung out to dry, and they have nobody to blame but themselves.
Last i heard they are saying they were on their laptops. I am sorry but i have a hard time believing that they got that distracted by working on laptops that they missed all the radio calls etc. Was it not over 1 hour of no communication with ATC. At 1 point did the news not report the F/A had to call a couple time prior to getting any response from the front. I guess there are only 2 people that know what really happened. My vote is the boy's took a little power nap.
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Hey Pratt. Yes I do had jumping to conclusions when I wasn't there. And I don't want to make it look like I am an expert on the bus because I am definitely not. I have rode jump in them many times but makes me no expert. It is just hard to imagine that all those ways of alerting you and NEITHER pilot noticing. Like come on, at least ONE must have heard something; ACARS, radio calls, FA's.....something! OK if it was 10-20 mins I can see but 1.5 hours!
Sorry I might have made it seem like the pilots initiated a deal with the company to keep their mouth shut but I meant the company initiating a deal so it doesn't make the company look bad pushing their pilots into fatigue. Again I am not saying that is what happened. Just saying I think there is something not being revealed.
Sorry I might have made it seem like the pilots initiated a deal with the company to keep their mouth shut but I meant the company initiating a deal so it doesn't make the company look bad pushing their pilots into fatigue. Again I am not saying that is what happened. Just saying I think there is something not being revealed.
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
the 'other distraction?'
Perhaps there was some serious man-love goin' on.
Perhaps there was some serious man-love goin' on.
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Check Pilot
- Rank 6
- Posts: 426
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:26 am
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
By now you have all heard the VERY loud sounds of the popping of a couple of Pilot Licences and the rest of their Northwest/Delta careers and aviation lives going down the tubes.
This sure doesn't speak well for public opinion of aviation people does it?
We've become just bus drivers to most of the public now. Just like any bus driver these days we are only expected these day to deliver the goods on time. All we can do is just smile as the passengers go by us up or onto the ramp or tarmac connecting the passengers with their plane and/or airborne taxi to their destination. Delays aren't tolerated any more, regardless of the weather or airport conditions.
As the pilot, you're just the driver. You are expected to always get the machine, just like any taxi driver, on to the address that your fare paying passenger wants to get delivered to.
As much as can be said to the profession as a pilot - keep driving the bus I guess. It's how you make money, whatever that amount might be.
Only by individual will, can conditions get better for yourself. I just met a Greyhound bus driver that makes more money per month than than some of the middle Captains in CYXD flying Beech 200's. What a shame really.
This sure doesn't speak well for public opinion of aviation people does it?
We've become just bus drivers to most of the public now. Just like any bus driver these days we are only expected these day to deliver the goods on time. All we can do is just smile as the passengers go by us up or onto the ramp or tarmac connecting the passengers with their plane and/or airborne taxi to their destination. Delays aren't tolerated any more, regardless of the weather or airport conditions.
As the pilot, you're just the driver. You are expected to always get the machine, just like any taxi driver, on to the address that your fare paying passenger wants to get delivered to.
As much as can be said to the profession as a pilot - keep driving the bus I guess. It's how you make money, whatever that amount might be.
Only by individual will, can conditions get better for yourself. I just met a Greyhound bus driver that makes more money per month than than some of the middle Captains in CYXD flying Beech 200's. What a shame really.
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Clodhopper
- Rank 5
- Posts: 374
- Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:24 pm
- Location: Wishing the only ice I saw was in my drinks...
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/10/27/airlin ... index.html
So I guess they were learning to use a scheduling system they now wont have to worry about...way to go boys.
So I guess they were learning to use a scheduling system they now wont have to worry about...way to go boys.
a.k.a. "Big Foot"
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Hmmm surprised that no one has mentioned it yet! Flight attendants should be fired too! many times we have completed a flight without a peep...mmmmhmmm..
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Delta Pilots’ Union Issues Statement on Northwest Flight 188 Investigation
DAL 09-03, October 26, 2009
Atlanta—The Delta Master Executive Council, the Delta branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), the union that represents the over 12,000 pilots of Delta Air Lines, today issued a statement concerning the NTSB investigation into Northwest Flight 188.
“As professional airline pilots, our primary concern is and always will be the safety and well-being of our passengers,” said Captain Lee Moak, Delta MEC Chairman. “In any aircraft incident, there is always more to the story than first appears in the press. We do not condone the abandonment of due process that will result from a rush to judgment; instead we implore all interested parties to move with deliberate and unemotional professionalism as the events surrounding this incident are investigated.”
On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, Air Traffic Control (ATC) lost radio contact with Northwest Flight 188, and Flight 188 subsequently overflew its destination before radio contact was reestablished. The aircraft remained visible to ATC radar at all times. Once radio contact was reestablished, the aircraft returned for a safe landing at its destination. At no time were the passengers, crew or aircraft in danger.
Over the past several years, labor, management, the industry and government agencies have partnered, expending significant amounts of time, money and effort, to develop programs such as Aviation Safety Action Programs (ASAP) and Flight Operational Quality Assurance (FOQA) programs designed to improve the safety of our nation’s aviation system. The core tenet of these programs is the ability of pilots to self disclose without fear of retribution in order to help make the U.S. aviation system the safest in the world.
“To date, all crew statements related to this case have been voluntary. We are disappointed that these voluntary statements are being used without regard for the breach of trust and confidence their use will cause,” Captain Moak remarked. “Programs like ASAP and FOQA could be dealt a debilitating blow as pilots question the integrity of these voluntary programs. A rush to judgment by the NTSB will have a direct impact on the future of voluntary safety programs, which are at the very core of the safety structure of the U.S. aviation industry. The continued viability of these programs themselves will be placed at risk. That will, in turn, cause irreparable harm to the safety of our nation’s aviation system.”
“The NTSB is an independent federal agency charged with determining the probable cause of transportation accidents and promoting transportation safety. They are not charged with prematurely releasing self-disclosed information to be sensationalized in the press,” Captain Moak insisted.
“We will work closely with Delta and federal officials to determine any root causes for last weeks sequence of events,” Captain Moak continued, “but in the meantime I strongly encourage all parties not to reach a hasty conclusion. There is a proper venue for this investigation, but we stand firmly behind the crew’s right to due process.”
DAL 09-03, October 26, 2009
Atlanta—The Delta Master Executive Council, the Delta branch of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), the union that represents the over 12,000 pilots of Delta Air Lines, today issued a statement concerning the NTSB investigation into Northwest Flight 188.
“As professional airline pilots, our primary concern is and always will be the safety and well-being of our passengers,” said Captain Lee Moak, Delta MEC Chairman. “In any aircraft incident, there is always more to the story than first appears in the press. We do not condone the abandonment of due process that will result from a rush to judgment; instead we implore all interested parties to move with deliberate and unemotional professionalism as the events surrounding this incident are investigated.”
On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, Air Traffic Control (ATC) lost radio contact with Northwest Flight 188, and Flight 188 subsequently overflew its destination before radio contact was reestablished. The aircraft remained visible to ATC radar at all times. Once radio contact was reestablished, the aircraft returned for a safe landing at its destination. At no time were the passengers, crew or aircraft in danger.
Over the past several years, labor, management, the industry and government agencies have partnered, expending significant amounts of time, money and effort, to develop programs such as Aviation Safety Action Programs (ASAP) and Flight Operational Quality Assurance (FOQA) programs designed to improve the safety of our nation’s aviation system. The core tenet of these programs is the ability of pilots to self disclose without fear of retribution in order to help make the U.S. aviation system the safest in the world.
“To date, all crew statements related to this case have been voluntary. We are disappointed that these voluntary statements are being used without regard for the breach of trust and confidence their use will cause,” Captain Moak remarked. “Programs like ASAP and FOQA could be dealt a debilitating blow as pilots question the integrity of these voluntary programs. A rush to judgment by the NTSB will have a direct impact on the future of voluntary safety programs, which are at the very core of the safety structure of the U.S. aviation industry. The continued viability of these programs themselves will be placed at risk. That will, in turn, cause irreparable harm to the safety of our nation’s aviation system.”
“The NTSB is an independent federal agency charged with determining the probable cause of transportation accidents and promoting transportation safety. They are not charged with prematurely releasing self-disclosed information to be sensationalized in the press,” Captain Moak insisted.
“We will work closely with Delta and federal officials to determine any root causes for last weeks sequence of events,” Captain Moak continued, “but in the meantime I strongly encourage all parties not to reach a hasty conclusion. There is a proper venue for this investigation, but we stand firmly behind the crew’s right to due process.”
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Brown Bear wrote:
Did you EVEN bother to READ the rest of the thread. They weren't fatigued. They were pissing around with their laptop computers.......while they flew 144+ persons, around. If I were in the back, and my pilots were playing with their laptops, I'd be quite pissed. Now back to the ESL course with you.
Give the guy a break, its hard to read and fly at the same time!
No trees were harmed in the transmission of this message. However, a rather large number of electrons were temporarily inconvenienced.
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Im so dissapointed...
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
You have to love the union spin...
“On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, Air Traffic Control (ATC) lost radio contact with Northwest Flight 188, and Flight 188 subsequently overflew its destination before radio contact was reestablished. The aircraft remained visible to ATC radar at all times. Once radio contact was reestablished, the aircraft returned for a safe landing at its destination. At no time were the passengers, crew or aircraft in danger.”
Basically trying to pass this off as a non event, no harm no foul thinking. Then they suggest that because the crew has been forth right in volunteering statements, the statements should not be used against them for disciplinary action i.e. non punitive reporting.
"The core tenet of these programs is the ability of pilots to self disclose without fear of retribution in order to help make the U.S. aviation system the safest in the world."
Then the union follows up with safety scare tactics...and some people think the regulator is out of control?
“Programs like ASAP and FOQA could be dealt a debilitating blow as pilots question the integrity of these voluntary programs. A rush to judgment by the NTSB will have a direct impact on the future of voluntary safety programs, which are at the very core of the safety structure of the U.S. aviation industry. The continued viability of these programs themselves will be placed at risk. That will, in turn, cause irreparable harm to the safety of our nation’s aviation system.”
If this flys and they save the pilots jobs it will be pushing non punitive reporting to a ridiculous level, I can see it now…a new line on the pre-start checklist…”blank incident report armed and ready for ass covering”
“On Wednesday, October 21, 2009, Air Traffic Control (ATC) lost radio contact with Northwest Flight 188, and Flight 188 subsequently overflew its destination before radio contact was reestablished. The aircraft remained visible to ATC radar at all times. Once radio contact was reestablished, the aircraft returned for a safe landing at its destination. At no time were the passengers, crew or aircraft in danger.”
Basically trying to pass this off as a non event, no harm no foul thinking. Then they suggest that because the crew has been forth right in volunteering statements, the statements should not be used against them for disciplinary action i.e. non punitive reporting.
"The core tenet of these programs is the ability of pilots to self disclose without fear of retribution in order to help make the U.S. aviation system the safest in the world."
Then the union follows up with safety scare tactics...and some people think the regulator is out of control?
“Programs like ASAP and FOQA could be dealt a debilitating blow as pilots question the integrity of these voluntary programs. A rush to judgment by the NTSB will have a direct impact on the future of voluntary safety programs, which are at the very core of the safety structure of the U.S. aviation industry. The continued viability of these programs themselves will be placed at risk. That will, in turn, cause irreparable harm to the safety of our nation’s aviation system.”
If this flys and they save the pilots jobs it will be pushing non punitive reporting to a ridiculous level, I can see it now…a new line on the pre-start checklist…”blank incident report armed and ready for ass covering”
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
I still find it hard to believe that being on their laptops resulted in overflying MSP. I mean, my B95 has enough technology to tell me when I am doing something wrong, surely the A320 does as well (I am not familiar with the FMC system). I am just assuming there must have been some sort of other indication either sound, or visual I mean their displays are two and a half feet from their nose!
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
There are a few visual cues, but somebody has to be looking at them. The most basic, basic, basic basic (have I said basic enough?) rule is somebody has to be flying the airplane. If what the crew are saying is true, both those guys might as well have left the cockpit and sat in the back for an hour and a half. I have to agree with hot fuel here. There are limits to non-punitive reporting where negligence is concerned.arictaylor wrote:I still find it hard to believe that being on their laptops resulted in overflying MSP. I mean, my B95 has enough technology to tell me when I am doing something wrong, surely the A320 does as well (I am not familiar with the FMC system). I am just assuming there must have been some sort of other indication either sound, or visual I mean their displays are two and a half feet from their nose!
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
In YXU the bus drivers are threatening to strike because they only make $24/hour with benefits.Check Pilot wrote:We've become just bus drivers to most of the public now. Just like any bus driver these days we are only expected these day to deliver the goods on time. All we can do is just smile as the passengers go by us up or onto the ramp or tarmac connecting the passengers with their plane and/or airborne taxi to their destination. Delays aren't tolerated any more, regardless of the weather or airport conditions.
As the pilot, you're just the driver. You are expected to always get the machine, just like any taxi driver, on to the address that your fare paying passenger wants to get delivered to.
As much as can be said to the profession as a pilot - keep driving the bus I guess. It's how you make money, whatever that amount might be.
Only by individual will, can conditions get better for yourself. I just met a Greyhound bus driver that makes more money per month than than some of the middle Captains in CYXD flying Beech 200's. What a shame really.
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
on what basis?EngineGuy wrote:Why don't I believe for one second that this actully was a case of them both playing with their computers. Call me a skeptic or overly cynical but I think were being lied to.
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
EngineGuy wrote:Why don't I believe for one second that this actully was a case of them both playing with their computers. Call me a skeptic or overly cynical but I think were being lied to.
Does World of Warcraft have a pause button?
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Flying Nutcracker
- Rank 6
- Posts: 469
- Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 3:14 pm
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
I find it very ironic, given that "Sully" has been on a spree of promoting higher pay for better quality personnel in the aviation department, only to have 2 of us go on a rampage like this and clutter it all over the media putting us all in a bad light...
Not to mention the ATL incident on a taxiway besides a runway...
What must "Sully" think of all this...?!?!?
Not to mention the ATL incident on a taxiway besides a runway...
What must "Sully" think of all this...?!?!?
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Good point. These were not a couple of wet-behind-the-ears turboprop drivers. They were both very experienced, and in their 50's.Flying Nutcracker wrote:I find it very ironic, given that "Sully" has been on a spree of promoting higher pay for better quality personnel in the aviation department, only to have 2 of us go on a rampage like this and clutter it all over the media putting us all in a bad light...
Not to mention the ATL incident on a taxiway besides a runway...
What must "Sully" think of all this...?!?!?
As for the laptop story, I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I think they lied to cover up the truth they were actually sleeping at the switch. Might have turned out better(for them) if they had said they were sleeping.
Drinking outside the box.
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
The Captain, 53 years old, was hired in 1985. His
total flight time is about 20,000 hours, about 10,000
hours of A-320 time of which about 7,000 was as pilot
in command.
* The First Officer, 54 years old, was hired in 1997.
His total flight time is about 11,000 hours, and has
about 5,000 hours on the A-320
Maybe we need mandatory retirement at age 50
That'll buff right out 
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Maybe we should pass new regulations forcing a minimum age difference of 2 decades in the flight deck!
Drinking outside the box.
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
That's a high-fiver fer shoor!
Drinking outside the box.
Re: Northwest A320 overflies destination by 150 miles . . .
Is the Union missing the point about "non-punitive reporting"? This aspect of SMS - or whatever it's called in the US - is designed to encourage error reporting that uncovers systemic problems in the company or the industry, not individuals' flagrant or apathetic disregard of their responsibilities, or violations of SOP or FARs.
The statement that no one and no aircraft was in danger at any time is also a red herring designed to deflect attention from the seriousness of the incident. In my opinion, the safety of the whole aviation system, and the security of the nation, are plunged into uncertainty when a crew fails to respond to an ATC instruction, clearance, or handover.
This incident - which the Union would try to convey as fairly benign - is actually very serious, and we must collectively wonder how widespread the problem is in the USA.
The statement that no one and no aircraft was in danger at any time is also a red herring designed to deflect attention from the seriousness of the incident. In my opinion, the safety of the whole aviation system, and the security of the nation, are plunged into uncertainty when a crew fails to respond to an ATC instruction, clearance, or handover.
This incident - which the Union would try to convey as fairly benign - is actually very serious, and we must collectively wonder how widespread the problem is in the USA.
