The Next Gear Up Landing

[Doc]

Doc,
I understand that you have 25000+h of accident free flying in, I presume, light aircraft. (I'm not being a smartass).
One day on a checkride, something happened out of the ordinary, (unexpected missed or something, followed by a tight visual-not part of the ride anyway, but needed for ATC reasons). Anyways, he landed gear up.

Mostly light aircraft. That' a landing, pretty much for each hour of flight time. That's more landings than the "big" airplanes. All, BTW with the wheels down.

"(I'm not being a smart ass)"....ya, you are. We'll let that slide. In "light" aircraft, you have way more opportunities to screw up, than you have with the airlines. So yes, I'm out there in the "trenches".

In your example, you're still making excuses. Not only for your friend, but for the half witted "check pilot" who, BTW is also responsible for the gear up (perhaps even more so, because he's the one applying the pressure to your friend).....not the "tight visual-not required for the ride anyway, but needed for ATC..."
He/they landed gear up because, they screwed up...NOT for the "reasons" you give. Until we accept that fact.....

[Cat Driver]

The guys and gals who fly the water scoopers are the ones who really do a lot of landings and take offs in a short period of time.

Unfortunately they also select the wrong gear position every so often, even two crew.

Just more reason for each and every one of us to be more focused on what we are doing at all times.

By the way what do you all think of pilots listening to ipods while flying?

[beechnut]

I-Pods are to flying what Cell Phones and Texting are to road safety

[Cobra64]

Anybody hear of a gear up, or at least nosewheel up, landing in Yellowknife? Summit I think?

[Forestdump]

The next gear up landing should be 3 Wednesdays from now on the History Channel.

[Doc]

I-Pods are to flying what Cell Phones and Texting are to road safety

Not even in the same league.

[Cat Driver]

The reason I asked about Ipods is I have seen a lot of posts asking how to wire an Ipod into an aviation headset.

Therefore in my simple little mind I assumed there are pilots who fly with Ipods on in their headsets.

Be gentle with me because I am really timid and easily hurt and remember Ipods were not really popular when I was flying for a living...at least not in the sector of aviation I worked in.

[beechnut]

Oh really

[yycflyguy]

Funny thing is Cat, that the most successful companies TODAY hold CRM as a vital component to safe operation? Did you know that at my inferior airline, up to 50% of sim grading is on CRM?

Annnnnnnnnnd

They still shoot approaches into Vernon by accident, your point is?????

Despite CRM courses all over the place people are still landing with the gear up, what do you suggest to help reduce this trend?

Woohooo! You had to go back 7 years to take a shot at Air Canada. Good for you! Oh, and by the way, it was a visual approach that was aborted because they knew it wasn't right DUE TO CRM. Get it now?

Cat:

......for sure there has been advances in aircraft since I retired, however there are a lot of the airplanes out there still using the technology that was new in 1998 the last year I worked for Airbus Industries and was given training at the factory in the A320 sim from four of their instructor/ test pilots.

Airbus was not new technology in 1998. The technology is from the mid 1980's and it is impressive still in 2010.

Doc:

You almost sounded like you were taking a step back on your assertions but this comment made me think you still don't get it:

"(I'm not being a smart ass)"....ya, you are. We'll let that slide. In "light" aircraft, you have way more opportunities to screw up, than you have with the airlines. So yes, I'm out there in the "trenches".

Being in the trenches? So Airlines that operate YYZ-YOW-YYZ in 42 minutes/leg 4 times a day aren't in the trenches? There you go again with "my job is more difficult, therefore I am a superior pilot".

Thank God I remembered the gear today.

So Cat and Doc you both have still have avoided my question.

When the next gear up accident occurs are you man enough to step forward and say "I knew it, I knew it!" Pilots today aren't half as good and I knew it was going to happen because I started a pool on it!". I am sure the family and friends will take great comfort knowing you took a CRM course on the Bus 12 years ago and that Doc is out there in the trenches.

Good job guys

[Cat Driver]

When the next gear up accident occurs are you man enough to step forward and say "I knew it, I knew it!" Pilots today aren't half as good and I knew it was going to happen because I started a pool on it!".

Somehow you have missed the point that neither Doc nor I take any pleasure in hearing about any accident, quite the contrary we are hoping they do not happen.

I am sure the family and friends will take great comfort knowing you took a CRM course on the Bus 12 years ago and that Doc is out there in the trenches.

That course I took 12 years ago was one small segment of my career as a pilot and if you get pleasure in making light of it so be it.

The difference between you and I yycflyguy is I did get through my career accident and regulatory infraction free, which included some of the most challenging flying in aviation and you obviously have a long way to go.

Your goal should be to be as successful and end up with an accident free record like I did.

Being in the trenches? So Airlines that operate YYZ-YOW-YYZ in 42 minutes/leg 4 times a day aren't in the trenches? There you go again with "my job is more difficult, therefore I am a superior pilot".

What you consider " in the trenches " is routine flying under some of the best conditions one could hope to work in.

Get back to me when your horizons expand a bit more yycflyguy.

Because I am through responding to you on these subjects.

[Bede]

"(I'm not being a smart ass)"....ya, you are. We'll let that slide. In "light" aircraft, you have way more opportunities to screw up, than you have with the airlines. So yes, I'm out there in the "trenches".

Actually, no I was not being a smart ass. The point you make is exactly what I mean. In the plane I fly it's near impossible to do a gear up because off the horns that go off at 170kts with 20 flap which can't be cancelled. I remember the PA31 horn went off just as you were touching down at idle. Someone who has flown light aircraft for 25000h without a scratch is reasonably impressive, where I would expect nothing less than perfection from an airline pilot with 25000h of airline flying.

You did not answer my question though, what sets you apart from any other high time pilot with a perfect safety record who has his first mishap? This is not a rhetorical question, I am being sincere.

[yycflyguy]

the difference between you and I yycflyguy is I did get through my career which included some of the most challenging flying in aviation and you obviously have a long way to go.

Your goal should be to be as successful and end up with an accident free record as I did.

... and what do you know about my career Cat? My goal IS to reach the end of my career NOT only accident free, but out of the papers, out of the office and I hope I get to impart some of my experiences and wisdom on the next generation.

For some reason you have grouped me with all those "wet behind the ears" rookies that will eventually gear up one day. Don't bother turning this into a question of my credentials. They are more than diverse. With your self righteousness and comments of superior skills I am still waiting to hear how you will explain your pool to the next victims family.

What you consider " in the trenches " is routine flying under some of the best conditions one could hope to work in.

Wrong again mi gatito. Flying VFR aircraft on floats could also be argued to be the "best conditions one could work in" The difference between you and I is that I don't make my job to be heroes work whereas you have a career to reflect upon and determine that nobody is as good as you. Each have its challenges and each have its rewards.

You did not answer my question though, what sets you apart from any other high time pilot with a perfect safety record who has his first mishap? This is not a rhetorical question, I am being sincere.

Excellent question. We are all awaiting your answer...

[Cat Driver]

You did not answer my question though, what sets you apart from any other high time pilot with a perfect safety record who has his first mishap?

What kind of a question is that?

Maybe I never had my first mishap?

[Doc]

What sets me apart? I actually "check" that the gear is down. (I know that sounds overly simple...and it is!) Every time. I don't need to see it on a written check list. I don't need bells, whistles, or horns. Every landing is performed (some performed better than others, to be sure)only after "checking" for the gear lights. This is NOT rocket science. It's not a mystery. However, it would appear to be by some. It's why, I just don't understand how some forget. It's just something I do. Perhaps it should be something you do as well?

The only reason that modern airplanes are becoming more "idiot proof" is, perhaps there are more "idiots" flying them?

Little things. If you NEED a check list to fly, perhaps you can't actually fly. I'm not advocating tossing your check lists out the window. Far from it. But if you NEED a check list to survive, go drive a bus.

As an aside....yycflyguy, come up with something constructive. It would be refreshing. Nobody, at any time has indicated, in any way their superiority to you. If that's how you read it, that's your problem. Not ours.

[yycflyguy]

[quote]
... and THAT has been my criticism of your posts on this thread from the start. The difference is, I am only condescending (or should that be superiorending, as your career is far superior to anyone elses) to you whereas you are condescending to an entire generation of colleagues?


Next fatal accident I will be sure to remind you of your tasteful wagering.

[Doc]

... and THAT has been my criticism of your posts on this thread from the start. The difference is, I am only condescending (or should that be superiorending, as your career is far superior to anyone elses) to you whereas you are condescending to an entire generation of colleagues?

Next fatal accident I will be sure to remind you of your tasteful wagering.

Don't be like that, yycflyguy.

[Cat Driver]

You can't win here Doc.

If you screw up and wreck an airplane you are only human and it is just part of being a pilot, but if you go through your career without wrecking anything you are accused of being " superior "

I guess being superior is to be avoided if you want to be accepted by these guys.

By the way in my " Golden years " I still hold a Class 1 medical and have all my licenses ready should I need them..which I won't because I now fly only for pleasure and am able to afford it.

Have you read yycflyguys comments on the college thread when I asked what is needed to qualify to be part of setting up colege?

Interesting thought process that guy has huh?

[yycflyguy]

What sets me apart? I actually "check" that the gear is down. (I know that sounds overly simple...and it is!) Every time. I don't need to see it on a written check list. I don't need bells, whistles, or horns. Every landing is performed (some performed better than others, to be sure)only after "checking" for the gear lights. This is NOT rocket science. It's not a mystery. However, it would appear to be by some. It's why, I just don't understand how some forget. It's just something I do. Perhaps it should be something you do as well?

The only reason that modern airplanes are becoming more "idiot proof" is, perhaps there are more "idiots" flying them?

Little things. If you NEED a check list to fly, perhaps you can't actually fly. I'm not advocating tossing your check lists out the window. Far from it. But if you NEED a check list to survive, go drive a bus.

As an aside....yycflyguy, come up with something constructive. It would be refreshing. Nobody, at any time has indicated, in any way their superiority to you. If that's how you read it, that's your problem. Not ours.

*Great big sigh outloud*

Ok. Last try at this.

You're telling me that YOUR COLLEAGUES, the ones that YOUR GENERATION were responsible to train and educate, the same "Idiots" that you have labelled are the same "idiots" that your generation placed in positions where they have geared up and then be told that CRM (and to a lesser degree SMS and educational programs) have no place in mitigating accidents and that it only happened because obviously they are "idiots"? Obviously this is a bunch of "idiots" because in your career it never happened to you?

Then you publicly post a wager as to when the next potential accident will occur but you tell me that I am the one that doesn't have anything constructive to add?

Here is my constructive criticism for gear ups. You better lean real close to your computer so you can hear me. DON'T WAGER BETS AS TO WHEN/IF THE NEXT ACCIDENT WILL OCCUR!! Implement layers of safety into the SOPs of your operation that cover every possibility. Recognize that it is happening and find out how to change it. Get it? Don't tell everyone they are an "idiot" but program them how to mitigate ANY kind of incident.

The only reason that modern airplanes are becoming more "idiot proof" is, perhaps there are more "idiots" flying them?

Yikes. You really believe that too don't you?

Here's hoping this "idiot" remembers the gear for his 140 passengers tomorrow.

[yycflyguy]

Weird. Cat and Doc wager on accidents. I get posts edited with no reason. Whatever. One quick question to you though. After how many years can I be considered part of your cool-kids-group?

Best of luck guys, hope you can change all those bad habits of those "idiots".

[reality check]

Funny thing is Cat, that the most successful companies TODAY hold CRM as a vital component to safe operation? Did you know that at my inferior airline, up to 50% of sim grading is on CRM?

Annnnnnnnnnd

They still shoot approaches into Vernon by accident, your point is?????

Despite CRM courses all over the place people are still landing with the gear up, what do you suggest to help reduce this trend?

Woohooo! You had to go back 7 years to take a shot at Air Canada. Good for you! I bet if we looked at your career it wouldn't take 7 years to find a @#$! up. Oh, and by the way, it was a visual approach that was aborted because they knew it wasn't right DUE TO CRM. Get it now?

Um:

... and what do you know about my career Cat?

Remember this little comment, or you just have a separate standard for yourself?

So, 7 years has anything to do with anything? And how?

they knew it wasn't right DUE TO CRM. Get it now?

You either don't understand the concept, which I find unlikely as I'm sure you go through it enough to get it down pat, or more likely you're unable to see how the wonderfully applied CRM didn't stop them getting into the mess in the first place. Nice try, better luck next time!

Oh btw, because something is "more difficult," it DOES make a superior pilot. I guess all your pavement to pavement experience insulates you from that fact, but I'll let you go this time.

Cheers!

[Cat Driver]

Oh btw, because something is "more difficult," it DOES make a superior pilot. I guess all your pavement to pavement experience insulates you from that fact, but I'll let you go this time.

Cheers

Maybe we should cut this guy some slack, I doubt he can relate to what we are trying to point out anyhow......he thinks this is tough flying.

Being in the trenches? So Airlines that operate YYZ-YOW-YYZ in 42 minutes/leg 4 times a day aren't in the trenches?

I rest my case.

[Cat Driver]

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[yycflyguy]

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[jjj]

Skimmed the thread.

What takes me by surprise is that there are some posters on here that think they are impervious to the error of not selecting the gear down before the sparks.

Doc, I am curious to what your resume is that makes you feel you would never make this mistake?

I have taken some 3000 hour talented pilots in some pretty normal training scenarios in a Learjet and they were so far behind that they could barely hold on let alone remember the gear - I wonder how you could handle it Doc?

Doc, I don't know you from a hole in the wall but something tells me that you, like many others, are perfectly capable of missing the gear when circumstances work against you.

I find your position on this matter arrogant and ill informed.


JJJ

[yycflyguy]

Yeah! What JJJ said