CYPW gear up Ho

[square]

Bears mentioning that these crews generally start at 5AM and regularly do 15 hour days. In any other job all the employees would complain of being zombies in short order, but a pilot will not complain of that.

[Doc]

Just put the stinking gear down.

Pick the BEER UP. Put the GEAR DOWN.

I'm sorry Flying Nutcracker, but when I was in the sales business, we called what your posts represented, while being valid, GOING PAST THE CLOSE!

There is no excuse for forgetting the gear. And in a two crew environment, it borders on criminally insane! Perhaps what we need in the cockpit is a voice, heavily laced with a French accent .........."Retard, Retard, Retard....."?

[Doc]

Bears mentioning that these crews generally start at 5AM and regularly do 15 hour days. In any other job all the employees would complain of being zombies in short order, but a pilot will not complain of that.

This sure didn't happen after a 15 hour day. I've done as many 15 hour days as anyone here. Maybe more. It's an EXCUSE. Are my eyes filling with tears of sympathy? Let me grab a mirror.....nope, no tears.
Two guys forget the gear, well before lunch, and the "poor pilots have to work long days...." excuses start. GMAFB!

[Cat Driver]

Flying nutcracker you are bang on in your descriptions of some of the reasons these preventable accidents continue to happen like clock work in the 703 704 sector.

Maybe the junior crews doing all this hard flying, that really needs a mature attitude and seasoned aviators, are at an even bigger disadvantage than we give them credit for?

Exactly, however until the mindset of the lowest bidder gets the work in the courier business changes nothing else will change.

I did a short stint of flying courier in the mid seventies and was appalled at what I saw with regard to ignoring all safety rules and the garbage that they called airplanes we were supposed to fly.

I lasted about two months in that zoo they call bag runs. One morning I was threatened with dismissal by some moron in a dispatch office because I had turned back to Calgary having started to pick up freezing rain...he said if I did not get back in the airplane and deliver the load he would find someone else.....I described what he could do to himself in simple words hung the phone up, went home and never flew another bag run ever again.

I see not much has changed in the following years.

[square]

I've done as many 15 hour days as anyone here. Maybe more. It's an EXCUSE. Are my eyes filling with tears of sympathy? Let me grab a mirror.....nope, no tears.
Two guys forget the gear, well before lunch, and the "poor pilots have to work long days...." excuses start. GMAFB!

It's not an excuse Doc, but all your comments about how pilots suck at flying are about as insightful as the paperwork I file down the toilet every morning.

[Flying Nutcracker]

Doc, you bring tears to my eyes!

Wonder why you left the sales business... Were you too going past the close???

Sigh...

[Doc]

Doc, you bring tears to my eyes!

Wonder why you left the sales business... Were you too going past the close???

Sigh...

Long story. I was selling condos when flying was slow. Actually, I kind of miss it.

[square]

GUMPF
gas gauges undercarriage mixture mags pumps props flaps flaps (Cowls) etc.

Hey Doc, they do work, for some, especially if it is a simple airplane that you don't need a sim for!

Yeah I use FFGGUMPSSIC. Flaps flaps gas gauges undercarriage mixture props switches security instruments circuit breakers.

[Doc]

It's not an excuse Doc, but all your comments about how pilots suck at flying are about as insightful as the paperwork I file down the toilet every morning.

I said "pilots suck at flying.."? Bullshit! Where did I ever say that?? I may have eluded to the FACT that some fly with their heads up their asses. Why else would they forget something as bloody BASIC as putting the wheels down??
Now that you mention it....have you ever forgotten to DO that paperwork in the morning? Didn't think so. It's THAT basic.

[Doc]

Yeah I use FFGGUMPSSIC. Flaps flaps gas gauges undercarriage mixture props switches security instruments circuit breakers.

Seriously? I just put the gear down. That's way too long and complicated for me.

In all seriousness, if you use a memory aid that complicated, you WILL leave something out. Guaranteed it'll be the gear. Go with the KISS principal. Really, I'm trying to help here.

[square]

How is working for $9/hr not their own fault if true?

I don't mean to be rude or anything but this comment is really pretty ignorant of common sense economics. This is an operator in one of the biggest cities in Canada with 250 hour minimums that gives you multi-IFR time and multi-PIC before 1000 TT.

Every pilot with 250 hours in the country would take the job at some pay level, so how much do you think they will shell out to crew their machines? It's a business.

[square]

Yeah I use FFGGUMPSSIC. Flaps flaps gas gauges undercarriage mixture props switches security instruments circuit breakers.

Seriously? I just put the gear down. That's way too long and complicated for me.

In all seriousness, if you use a memory aid that complicated, you WILL leave something out. Guaranteed it'll be the gear. Go with the KISS principal. Really, I'm trying to help here.

This checklist takes as long to complete as it does to pronounce for the umpteen thousandth time. Check your flaps, cowl flaps, fuller tank, oil/temps/amps, gear position, red and blue levers up, beacon and alternator and relevant lights and heaters on, doors closed & seat belts on, altimeter & attitude indicator set and no circuit breakers popped.

I would assume that you yourself are aware that all of these items are correctly set & functional before you take off. What's wrong with a double check that you're not overtemping in cruise, that you're not running on the empty tank on short final, taking off with a blown alternator etc? I've found all those conditions and more many times using this check. It's a quick mnemonic I can perform in any airplane I've operated in any phase of flight that's really easy and thorough.

[Cat Driver]

When every pilot with 250 hours in the country would take the job at some pay level, so how much do you think they will shell out to crew their machines? It's a business.

I wonder if a good business person would weigh the cost of repairing airplanes against the savings they try and make by paying peanuts to inexperienced crews if your above statement is true?

[Doc]

How is working for $9/hr not their own fault if true?

I don't mean to be rude or anything but this comments is really pretty ignorant of common sense economics. This is an operator in one of the biggest cities in Canada with 250 hours minimums that gives you multi-IFR time and multi-PIC under 1000 TT.

When every pilot with 250 hours in the country would take the job at some pay level, so how much do you think they will shell out to crew their machines? It's a business.

Got to say, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for guys working for these wages. They did take the job. The knew the pay going in. As square says..."it is a business.."
Maybe the infamous "college" can help out on this issue?

[square]

I wonder if a good business person would weigh the cost of repairing airplanes against the savings they try and make by paying peanuts to inexperienced crews if your above statement is true?

I agree Cat I think that's what a good business person should recognize as an issue. But I don't think it's being discussed by a lot owners and managers as something that's their problem. In fact a lot of the owners are just shareholders checking the spreadsheets and leaving the flight safety to Chief Pilots and Ops Managers who have little to no control over wages or scheduling.

[Invertago]

GUMPF
gas gauges undercarriage mixture mags pumps props flaps flaps (Cowls) etc.

Hey Doc, they do work, for some, especially if it is a simple airplane that you don't need a sim for!

Yeah I use FFGGUMPSSIC. Flaps flaps gas gauges undercarriage mixture props switches security instruments circuit breakers.

Cool check, the one I use is TINETFTGSDTGFOYBDRTNDAYNWBMAYPOAAADFTPTPTFIYNTOSSIWBLSOIFGFARLAYNBAPG It stands for:

"There Is No Excuse To Forget The Gear So Drop The Gear Fool Or You'll Be Dropping Resumes The Next Day And Your Name Will Be Mud Amongst Your Peers On Avcanada And Also, Don't Forget To Put the Props To Fine Incase You Need To Over Shoot Since It Would Be Like Starting Off In Fourth Gear From A Red Light, And You'll Never Become A Pilot God"

But when I'm feeling really tired, I just leave the gear down from take off so there is nothing to forget.

[Vx.]

Anyone been though YQQ? if I recall correctly (and it's been awhile) the landing clearance there sounds something like
"ABC you're cleared to land runway 30 both cables removed check gear down." To this the controller is expecting you to acknowledge your landing clearance and include "Gear down" I have also heard "Three green" used.
I think it's a military thing, but I believe the point is that the Air force is a big fan of the check list and they want you to use one when landing at their facility.

[jjj]

Doc rules

[Dust Devil]

How is working for $9/hr not their own fault if true?

I don't mean to be rude or anything but this comment is really pretty ignorant of common sense economics. This is an operator in one of the biggest cities in Canada with 250 hour minimums that gives you multi-IFR time and multi-PIC before 1000 TT.

I'm not sure I get what you are saying here. What I am saying is if you accept the terms and conditions of a job that offers $9/hr you should expect $9/hr and not feel hard done by about it. No one forced anyone's hand to get behind the controls. And for $9/hr you should still know where the gear selector is.

[Slats]

Go with the KISS principal.

I don't use, and never have used memory aids. I don't like mnemonics. I find them to be crutches.

The only conclusion I can draw from reading these two statements Doc, is that, in regards to this "KISS principal" you speak of, you want to rock and roll all night and party every day.

[LousyFisherman]

I wonder if a good business person would weigh the cost of repairing airplanes against the savings they try and make by paying peanuts to inexperienced crews if your above statement is true?

I agree Cat I think that's what a good business person should recognize as an issue. But I don't think it's being discussed by a lot owners and managers as something that's their problem. In fact a lot of the owners are just shareholders checking the spreadsheets and leaving the flight safety to Chief Pilots and Ops Managers who have little to no control over wages or scheduling.

Actually from a business perspective it probably makes sense. The following numbers are just guesses to demonstrate why:
Assume 1 accident in 1000 flights of 4 hours.
4000 * 20/hour = 80,000
4000 * 9/hour = 36,000

Saving of $44,000. How much does insurance go up if you have an accident like the one in Powell River? And I assume my number of 1 in 1000 is way too pessimistic (I hope!!!!) so the actual savings are probably much higher

Not saying it is right, just saying that is what the guys with the spreadsheets are thinking.

LF

[Cat Driver]

Who eventually pays for the insurance pay outs?

[denkauto]

Just glad the people are ok, that is really all that matters.

[Dust Devil]

Just glad the people are ok, that is really all that matters.

You know that's a real feel good comment and all but it is total B.S.

[Cat Driver]

Just glad the people are ok, that is really all that matters.

You are O.K. with pilots wrecking airplanes due to pilot error as long as no one gets hurt?????

Would you feel that way if it was your airplane and your company?