Update - Citation was attempting barrel roll / crashed . . .

[Strega]

You + C550 barrel roll = BS

Re read the posts.....

[righthandman]

I say this very cautiously... there is nothing wrong with doing certain aerobatics in "almost" any plane. So in other words if you know what you are doing, it means remaining within certain limitations for the particular A/C.

But you DO have to know what you are doing; AND make sure you have sufficient altitude to recover, just in case you are not particularly "sharp" that day. (Although by the sounds of it these guys had too much altitude so to speak.)

Just deciding to do a manoeuvre that in theory can be done (if done properly) spur of the moment just for the heck of it, CAN have tragic consequences.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I say this very cautiously... there is nothing wrong with doing certain aerobatics in "almost" any plane. So in other words if you know what you are doing, it means remaining within certain limitations for the particular A/C.

But you DO have to know what you are doing; AND make sure you have sufficient altitude to recover, just in case you are not particularly "sharp" that day. (Although by the sounds of it these guys had too much altitude so to speak.)

Just deciding to do a manoeuvre that in theory can be done (if done properly) spur of the moment just for the heck of it, CAN have tragic consequences.

I am hard over on this one. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. There are IMO no circumstances that would justify intiating a roll of any kind (or any other aerobatic manoever) in a business jet. The question in my mind is if the FO also wanted to go along with the manoever or whether he caved into the demands of the Captain......in which case he would have paid for his lack of assertivenss, with his life.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

And besides, the Citations aren't real jets...

Obviously you have never been in a Citation X, climbing at 2000fpm through FL410 at M.88 PASSING every airliner in the sky.....I miss that plane

[Big Pistons Forever]

And besides, the Citations aren't real jets...

Obviously you have never been in a Citation X, climbing at 2000fpm through FL410 at M.88 PASSING every airliner in the sky.....I miss that plane

I remember watching a Citation X takeoff from Fort MacMurray. His clearance was FL510 Dallas via direct and he used less than half the (old) runway length before rotating to what looked like 20 deg nose up and disappearing from view as a tiny white dot high up in the blue sky....

[iflyforpie]

I never could understand why Cessna used their Citation moniker for both the 500 and 600 Series.

It's like using the name 'Golden Eagle' for each Cessna piston engined twin, even though one might be a 310 and the other a 421...

[xsbank]

Anybody who would roll a business jet will also to likely exceed or ignore all the other limitations too. Why obey the barber pole? What about low-speed cue? Flap speeds? Hard landing?

It all just screams 'amateur' at me. How would you like to have "He acted like a moron" on your tombstone?

[Cougar]

Anybody who would roll a business jet will also to likely exceed or ignore all the other limitations too.

That sums it up perfectly.

Well put.

[jjj]

JJJ

Whats so hard about driving an airliner on the runway in a crosswind?

I would hold much more respect for a pilot that can land a pitts in a 30knot cross wind as opposed to a 737 700......

Mind you what do I know...

The answer Strega is that it's not hard at all for anyone with decent stick/rudder skills. The point however that is lost on you is that a 30 KT X-wind landing on a swept wing jet is very much a stick and rudder move at a phase of flight that is very unforgiving. You bash pilots with no knowledge of the complexity of their task.

Your arm-chair quarterback post says it all: "Mind you what do I know..."

Too funny.

[jjj]

Exactly. Even the +2g's during entry, as Hedley points out, would be enough to cause a 'jet upset' at 30000 plus feet

This aircraft that crahsed was cleared to no higher than 34500',, so lets assume he was not higher than that.... I dont have a C550 manual in front of me, but Im speculating the "coffin corner" was much more than 5 knots.......

This is a simple example of pilot error caused by a lack of training..... A roll at 340 in a C550 would be easier to do than a roll at low level in an underpowered citabria.... and YES I have done both....


This is along the same lines as the "guys" that ran off the end of a 10k runway in a Dash ## being defended.......

As far as Im concerned, if you cant do a simple aerobatic excercise such as a roll.. you really shouldnt be flying....

Looks to me like this guy is not at sea level,, and he seems ok.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoMRCv669Vk

Please Strega elaborate on the relationship between the 10K Dash incident and the 550 roll.

This ought to be good.

If Strega can post a logical and cohesive argument together on that topic then it's a round of drinks on me.


Waiting with bated breath.

JJJ

[xsbank]

jeezuz JJJ its 'bated' breath.

Presumably if you had a sardine sandwich for lunch you could say you have "baited" breath!

[jjj]

Oops! Edited.

Anyhow, where's Strega?

JJJ

[Troubleshot]

Oops! Edited.

Anyhow, where's Strega?

JJJ

Takes a while to try and google all this info....stand-by...

[AEROBAT]

Density alt. makes a huge difference in how your plane reacts. At 8000 meters, 24000' it is a lot easier to induce flutter with large control movements as the air is less viscous. I know from experience screwing around at 10000' I can get aileron snatch doing plain jane aileron rolls that would never be an issue at the same indicated airspeed at 4000 or 5000 feet. Perhaps they were goofing around trying something that was previously successfull at a lower alt. and were caught unaware at the higher flight level.

[sepia]

I think you're really underestimating the skill level that most of the airline guys have. Obviously no one is rolling 777's or 737's in Canada, but it doesn't mean that the guys couldn't do it. I can't speak for WJ, but it seems like every 3rd or 4th pairing I do I'm sitting beside someone with a CF-18 sticker on their flight bag. There's actually guys that have won top gun flying here, they've probably forgotten how to roll though.

[jjj]

I also know of a guy who has maintained his currency as an aerobatics instructor over his last 10 years at WS. There are also a shwag of guys who own their own private machines.

Where's Strega - this thread is getting boring.

JJJ

[Hedley]

There are also a shwag of guys who own their own private machines

Don't those hours count toward your allowable monthly totals? I can see your employer not being too happy about that .... anyways ...

On topic ... an ex-military (fighter, not rotary wing or transport) pilot should be capable of easily gently rolling any jet aircraft without loosing altitude or exceeding any limits.

Back in the 1960's, my father - an F-104 project/weapons test/instructor pilot - got out of the air force. A UFO looney tune by the name of Paul Hellyer, who was worried about an alien invasion, was now Minister of Defense and wanted everyone to wear army green and army ranks, etc.

So he went to work for a large metals company as an engineer (not as a pilot). But when the large metals company bought a bizjet, they had him evaluate all the different bizjets available.

I think you can see where this is going. All I can say for sure is that all the different bizjets available back in 1970 roll very nicely indeed.

[KAG]

Strega
You mentioned that anyone who can't do a simple barrel roll shouldn't be flying. Well I have around 8000 hours and have never rolled an aircraft, nor have I ever had any aerobatic training outside from the usual stuff.
Recovering from an unusual attitude at high altitudes is something we train for every 6 months, and we do hand fly both in the sim and online (some) if you’re so inclined.
We may not be as proficient hands and feet wise as we once were, but were not as ham fisted as you insinuate.
Now back to renovating…

[iflyforpie]

Strega
You mentioned that anyone who can't do a simple barrel roll shouldn't be flying. Well I have around 8000 hours and have never rolled an aircraft, nor have I ever had any aerobatic training outside from the usual stuff.
Recovering from an unusual attitude at high altitudes is something we train for every 6 months, and we do hand fly both in the sim and online (some) if you’re so inclined.
We may not be as proficient hands and feet wise as we once were, but were not as ham fisted as you insinuate.
Now back to renovating…

And I barrel rolled a plane at 300 hours TT (7GCBC), so I am sure that even an airline pilot who did never did anything for the last 10,000 hours except hit TO/GA and drink coffee could do it...

[Hedley]

barrel rolled

Once more, with feeling: you don't want to barrel roll. I was doing continuous barrel rolls around my kid on the way back to the airport today, as he flew straight and level, nice and slow

Barrel rolls involves unnecessarily higher G than a vanilla aileron roll, which can be performed with max +2G and min +0.5G on the accelerometer.

I stand by my original statement that purely from an engineering standpoint, I can teach anyone to aileron roll any airplane in two minutes.

If you understand a tiny bit of high school physics and how to apply them to your aircraft, it's not hard to figure out the required entry (eg speed and degrees pitch up required) as a function of the aircraft characteristics.

Nowhere near as difficult, say, as trying to figure out the correct P/O/D hold entry

Food for thought: ever watch the military channel? Next time you see a military pilot roll an aircraft on TV, he will almost certainly lose altitude because he doesn't raise the nose high enough in the entry, or hold enough top rudder through knife edge, or push enough while inverted

These are things that you care greatly about when you start to fly rolls at the surface, especially at varying airspeed. A roll at 180 mph is much easier (and different to fly) than a roll at 80 mph, for example, because of the additional lift produced through knife edge and inverted, and of course the higher rate of roll. Any contest pilot can tell you that the faster you can get through a maneuvre, the less time there is to screw up!

[Strega]

JJJ

Sorry Ive been away for a bit...

I dont have a C550 flight manual in front of me,, but from memory the CL of the wing in cruise at lets say FL300 is around .3 (at 13500# or so) , and if we assume a stall CL of 1.2 with no flaps,, you have TONS of tons of airspeed window.

rolling a modern buis jet at 25-30k feet is no big deal,,, Im not saying everyone should do it,, but it should CERTAINLY not end in fatality...

[Strega]

All I can say for sure is that all the different bizjets available back in 1970 roll very nicely indeed.

Hed,,

No way,, according to JJJ anything more than 1 g and you will die...

[Strega]

Well I have around 8000 hours and have never rolled an aircraft,

Next time you fly a puddle jumper such as a A150 or citabria,,, try it... Im sure you might be humbled...


Get some training,, it will make you a better pilot..

[jjj]

Edited for finger trouble

[jjj]

Good evening Strega.

All I can say for sure is that all the different bizjets available back in 1970 roll very nicely indeed.

Hed,,

No way,, according to JJJ anything more than 1 g and you will die...

Which post of mine led you to this conclusion?