Jazz Air LP signed an agreement with Thomas Cook Canada Inc.

[bigmoly]

Sasktel

By your own logic, Skyservice pilots are to be chastised for having taken their low paying jobs as compared to traditional airline salaries. Pilots are individuals that are inherently self-interested based on the necessities of life. There are too many pilots in this very disorganized profession which has led to our current predicament. Nobody likes where the profession is going at the moment. The College of Professional Pilots is the answer. They may not have the answer for you today, but the future is brighter because of the efforts going into establishing a proper professional body that (unlike the individual pilot at this or that airline) is inherently interested in the collective well-being of all pilots in Canada. Your bombastic thrashings on avcanada are divisive and do not serve the interests of pilots. Please reconsider your position.

[SaskStyle]

Bigmoly

I agree with you 100%.

I must not have been clear in my theory...which remember boys and girls is just that...

All I said was that any expansion by Jazz which results in them hiring new pilots and paying what Jazz pays for the first two years on their flat salary...that salary is going to be considerably less than what a SS pilot was making. That's it. Whatever Jazz decides to do with their pilots and pay after is, correctly, none of my concern....

Believe me, if I was able to go and work for any company and transport my hard earned experience, I would. Came to Jazz with over 6000 hrs and shortly after there were college grads. Fair? Not really. Reality? You bet

We're on the same page then. I know the analogy was not the best, but it was used just to illustrate that point you just made.

And that's why I agree with you bigmoly that there can be no harm in a little cohesion amongst the ranks. I applaud those that are making the efforts to reach that goal.

I don't know what stand I have to reconsider.

If my bombastic remarks hurt some feelings, that was the point. I found it pretty tasteless that there was so much celebration and anticipation for Jazz's future when it's so clear that it was at other pilots expense.

You are obviously very unhappy with the structure and process of being a pilot in Canada. I wonder what type of structure you feel would ultimately be considered fair for all people for all time.

The approach that the Jazz pilots have taken could well be a game changer. What do you propose?

GTFA

I'm not that unhappy...and I don't have any answers...just some good rants.

However,

The one time I worked with a company who picked up the pieces of another that went under, the company I was with offered the pilots from the other jobs straight across. There was no bottom of the list stuff. And you know what? It worked fine. Yet here at the top of the food chain it's even more cutthroat.

But to say after 13 years of slugging it out in this industry, finally get somewhere I'm happy and now I'm a VULTURE, because another company's management or mis-management. I won't lose any sleep over it. If Jazz is hiring, and any SS pilots want to be here, welcome aboard, but there is no way I'm giving up my seniority because they chose to work at SS and I didn't.

[flyinhigh]

Sounds like sask is one of the Folks that left Jazz a few years back to go to SK, and is now pissed that his grass is greener approach was not so..

Oh well, sorry for your luck seriously but get a grip.

[GTFA]

The pilots of Jazz proved their integrity when they merged multiple pilot groups using pure date of hire seniority. One of a kind I think.

[bcflyer]

Don't get too caught up in the integrity of some of the guys at Jazz. You're right they merged date of hire but it wasn't exactly painless. Trust me I was there when it happened. When CCAA struck alot of guys were laid off well out of seniority due to fences and silo's that had been put in place.. There are still guys being paid less than guys below them on the list. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time there and have a lot of good friends that are still there, but the merge wasn't quite the lovefest some people think it was....

[SaskStyle]

Sounds like sask is one of the Folks that left Jazz a few years back to go to SK, and is now pissed that his grass is greener approach was not so..

Oh well, sorry for your luck seriously but get a grip.

I'm not pissed in the way you think.

I'll explain it one more time.

Skyservice goes bankrupt. 150 pilots are now looking for work.

Jazz announces expansion using the same 757's to fill the void left.

150 pilots are still looking for work.

Current model in aviation says if a SkyService pilot would like to work at Jazz, he/she goes bottom of the list.

Overall, the net gain for the Canadian pilot group is actually a loss.

For every newhire pilot that Jazz now employs on their flat salary, it is considerably less than the top SkyService Captain was making. So irregardless of what the senior pilots at Jazz will be paid to actually fly the 757.....overall....the money that was once flowing into the pockets of pilots and putting food on their family's tables is now diverted.

I'm saying the current model in our industry means there is no security/stability for any of our jobs.

I'm saying despite the party mood in the Jazz pilot rooms, I'm disappointed there was so little regard or consideration as to how they have their new planes and at what expense to the group as a whole.

That's it.

[CanadianEh]

Has it been stated what those pilots at Jazz who are operating the 757 will be earning?

[teacher]

Since we are still in negotiations for a new contract, no. It won't be either until a new collective agreement is signed.

[Jack Klumpus]

The following is just terrible to say, but I'll say it anyways

If YYB's longest runway wasn't enough for a Jazz Dash8, how long of a runway will the Jazz 757 need?

OHHH SNAP!

[countryhick]

When CCAA struck alot of guys were laid off well out of seniority due to fences and silo's that had been put in place..

Yes there were fences in place, standard merger policy, and you forget to mention that the merger agreement was ratified by all the respective merger committees. In all honesty, no one could foresee the events that followed. It is unfortunate those layoffs were out of seniority, but one does not have to look too far to see what can happen if another method of merging had been chosen.

[Maxpwr]

The following is just terrible to say, but I'll say it anyways

If YYB's longest runway wasn't enough for a Jazz Dash8, how long of a runway will the Jazz 757 need?

OHHH SNAP!

Igdit! You must be one of those flawless pilots. You know, instead of cracking jokes you should be relieved that nothing serious happened with that incident. Also we learned ALOT after that and several changes were made in our outfit as well. Knowing some of the details of what ACTUALLY happened i can tell you that TONS of pilots would have fallen into that particular trap that night....TONS!

[proper]

Seconded,

another armchair aviator, gracing us with his insightful thoughts, at least that only wasted 15 sec of my life.

[Old fella]

Well ..... some of the guys/gals at Jazz hopefully will get opportunities on wide body heavy iron and fly to destinations outside of the usual domestic stuff. Perhaps that will lead to openings for other guys/gals on the outside who want to get in with Jazz on the CRJ and DHC-08. To me that gotta be positive..... but maybe I am wrong(again)!!!!

[SaskStyle]

Well ..... some of the guys/gals at Jazz hopefully will get opportunities on wide body heavy iron and fly to destinations outside of the usual domestic stuff. Perhaps that will lead to openings for other guys/gals on the outside who want to get in with Jazz on the CRJ and DHC-08. To me that gotta be positive..... but maybe I am wrong(again)!!!!

And what about the SkyService pilots?

Fellow pilots, ladies and gentlemen. I feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall.

Yes, you at Jazz get new planes.

But those planes were being crewed by other pilots last week.

Those pilots are out of work.

If Jazz experiences any growth, the current model means that the New Hires will be at flat salary at bottom of their list.

That lifestyle is considerably different to what the SkyService pilot was experiencing last week.

I know you're looking as far as you can throw and there is no shame in that. You're talking reality and I'm talking vision.

But I still don't see any OVERALL positive growth for the Canadian pilot community in this at all.

[Dark Helmet]

Well ..... some of the guys/gals at Jazz hopefully will get opportunities on wide body heavy iron and fly to destinations outside of the usual domestic stuff. Perhaps that will lead to openings for other guys/gals on the outside who want to get in with Jazz on the CRJ and DHC-08. To me that gotta be positive..... but maybe I am wrong(again)!!!!

One positive is that you will have room to piss out that jug of Keith's Red

[mbav8r]

Sask,
I get what you're saying, as I said before when I came to Jazz I had 13 years of flying commercially under my belt. This system is not a good system, I have had to start at the bottom payscale 5 times. One company did have a bonus system for every 500 hrs pic, so if you had 3000 pic, you made a few hundred more a month than someone with 1000pic.
The system we have is not restricted to Canada or North America for that matter, it is world wide as far as I know. You make your choice, hope like hell it's a good choice and roll with it. With your logic, I think WestJet should stop taking new hulls, because enevitably this will put stress on other companies and more pilots will be out of work. Looking for a job. Probably knocking on WJ's door. Another thread is saying Sunwing laid off 50 guys/gals, why aren't you in their thread asking for them to hire those pilots direct entry, raining on their fu#$ng parade.
To be honest, before this announcment, I wasn't sure if I made the right choice. I chose to be here, I turned down the AC interview and have not applied at WJ. I was starting to question my choice and now we get some news that there is hope for a brighter future, and you come in and tell us we should not be celebrating because 150 pilots are out of work. With as much possible respect, quit raining on our parade.(I had other choice words but figured the mods would edit them)
One last thing how do you feel about the 6 or 8000 pilots out of work in the U.S? Thats alot of BOTL pilots who will no doubt be starting new jobs there soon with the growth I keep reading about.

So in summary, quit beating your head against a brick wall, because trying to depress people on here will not change a thing. The college won't change this system either. I think the college is a great Idea and has merit, but no one, I repeat no one will sign on to something that will take away what thev've built up with time. My 16 years in the industry now would assure me a left seat and I wouldn't sign on.

[Jack Klumpus]

Igdit! You must be one of those flawless pilots. You know, instead of cracking jokes you should be relieved that nothing serious happened with that incident. Also we learned ALOT after that and several changes were made in our outfit as well. Knowing some of the details of what ACTUALLY happened i can tell you that TONS of pilots would have fallen into that particular trap that night....TONS!

I guess you're a tad too sensitive, it's ok, my ex was like that.

Chill out, and relax. No one got hurt, no one lost an eye, just a bruised ego.

Why don't you (in another thread), tell us what you learned from that accident, so we can all learn of what lead a dash8 to overrun a 10,000ft runway.

Ciao

[ywg9]

I cant wait to hear Jazz 8998 HEAVY lol it will be a shocker the first time

[SaskStyle]

You make some great points, and I appreciate the dialogue.

You make your choice, hope like hell it's a good choice and roll with it. With your logic, I think WestJet should stop taking new hulls, because enevitably this will put stress on other companies and more pilots will be out of work. Looking for a job. Probably knocking on WJ's door. Another thread is saying Sunwing laid off 50 guys/gals, why aren't you in their thread asking for them to hire those pilots direct entry, raining on their fu#$ng parade.

You know what...I probably should. I'll get on it. The difference between the two and the reason I'm "raining on your parade" is because of the straight line. There is no ambiguity or need to connect the dots in this particular case, therefore it makes for an easy argument. SkyService disappears and Jazz takes over the flying. Your MEC worked hard to secure that work for you. I know from your vantage point it's a victory. But there was no creation of labour, no expansion. Labour costs were cut. That's it.

And you're correct in saying it is happening across the nation in other cases. But this is as clear cut as it gets. And you as a pilot group have an opportunity to do the right thing and make an example.

One last thing how do you feel about the 6 or 8000 pilots out of work in the U.S? Thats alot of BOTL pilots who will no doubt be starting new jobs there soon with the growth I keep reading about.

Exactly the reason why I'm so concerned with the current state of aviation here in Canada. Relying on economic supply and demand and capitalism to dictate hiring highs and layoff lows is insane.

. I think the college is a great Idea and has merit, but no one, I repeat no one will sign on to something that will take away what thev've built up with time. My 16 years in the industry now would assure me a left seat and I wouldn't sign on.

I appreciate the tough decisions you made. I argue that the most difficult decisions we make as pilots are outside the cockpit and are exactly the ones you are talking about. Your point regarding what you've built with time is very valid. There are no easy answers. But our job as leaders, as parents of possible pilots, is to suck it up and improve conditions for the next round.

[tjtailwind]

It may not be in direct competition with Air Canada, but it sure is in direct competition with Air Canada Vacations...

[Old fella]

Well ..... some of the guys/gals at Jazz hopefully will get opportunities on wide body heavy iron and fly to destinations outside of the usual domestic stuff. Perhaps that will lead to openings for other guys/gals on the outside who want to get in with Jazz on the CRJ and DHC-08. To me that gotta be positive..... but maybe I am wrong(again)!!!!

And what about the SkyService pilots?( I feel sorry for their situation as like all, I have been there as well)

Fellow pilots, ladies and gentlemen. I feel like I'm bashing my head against a wall.(Try not to hurt yourself, not worth the pain)

Yes, you at Jazz get new planes.( I am not an employee of Jazz, never was but know some older drivers who work there)

But those planes were being crewed by other pilots last week.( Very true)

Those pilots are out of work.( See first comment above)

If Jazz experiences any growth, the current model means that the New Hires will be at flat salary at bottom of their list.(Unfortunately that is true, my own experience indicates this always was an issue in the 35+ yrs I was in aviation. I remember working as an instructor for $50.00 per week and $3.00 per flying hour, owing a portly sum to the bank for the privledge of a CPL)

That lifestyle is considerably different to what the SkyService pilot was experiencing last week.( Indeed it is but without sounding cruel to those guys/gals on the street they aren't the only ones who faced such delicate situations, sadly it is part of life. Some go through it better that others)

I know you're looking as far as you can throw and there is no shame in that. You're talking reality and I'm talking vision.( As mentioned, I don't work at Jazz, matter of fact never worked at any airline but vision in this business is subjective, always was, always will be)

But I still don't see any OVERALL positive growth for the Canadian pilot community in this at all.

( Well in this movement on B757 lets a couple of young ladies or gents get a position with Jazz off the street, somebody is happy.......)

and finally....... here's wishing you the very best in your aviation years ahead. I feel sure it will be good to you

[unregistered]

Sounds like sask is one of the Folks that left Jazz a few years back to go to SK, and is now pissed that his grass is greener approach was not so..

Oh well, sorry for your luck seriously but get a grip.

Why would you think that?

[airmech07]

Look on the bright side some Skyservice mechanics will be lucky, as they will be getting jobs from this. Jazz mechanics will not be endorsed in time for this because they need 6 months on type experience (courses start in July). This deal could save the airline industry in toronto. with the integration on 757 and q400 there will be a demand in workload...To the pilots..at least you have something to throw into your collective agreement...this 757 will give you guys more leverage with the company...too bad us mechanics got nothing..

[teacher]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the Toronto City Centre Airport fiasco with AC and the competition Ac keeps mentioning. AC pretty much shut it's TCCA service so as not to take away from it's YYZ hub. Yes REGCO gave them a hard time about it when they wanted back in but in the grand scheme of things AC did this to itself way before Porter arrived. Yes, now we get onto Porter, so AC doesn't want to compete against itself on the same routes but than hands Porter a monopoly. Now AC gets NONE of the revenue out of the Island.

The same thing is happening here. AC and Jazz work together. Granted this is a different scenerio intirely we shouldn't be concerned with competing but rather working together. Any revenue improvements for Jazz are good news for AC. A strong stable diversified Jazz will only be a bonus to mainline. AC would not be better off had another carrier taken on this contract, that's a fact.

[Black Cat]

Hey Sask. You might want to add sunwing to your hit list too as signature vacation also used skyservice planes and pilots.



http://www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/09/2 ... ml?ref=rss

at any rate, good luck to the SS ppl.