airmech07 wrote:yes we did get screwed, I am an AME and I voted No for our contract. You guys will get what you want you always do and if you don't you walk...then days later the government will mandate back to work legislation. We are canada's airline and we fly more then air canada. I just hope you guys don't go on strike because us mechanics...etc will be layed off
So we should bend over and take it in the ass because you did? So now you're worried about getting laid off, and that should be our problem aswell?? .. You get what you bargin for .. nuff said .. we're not going to laid down on this one.
We don't WANT to go out on strike either. A strike would only occur if the Company failed to come back to the table and actually negotiate. The Company would be failing all of the employee groups if they decided not to negotiate.
Respectfully, you are also misinformed if you think that we always get what WE want.
We did not want to merge all of the regional airlines using an Air BC/Air Ontario Collective Agreement.
We did not want to give $62 million in concessions annually as a result of CCAA.
We did not want a bonus scheme the likes of Jazz Profit Sharing and Jazz Ensemble.
....and we do not want another concessionary collective agreement given the state of our Company's finances.
Let's say you get back $62M/yr (as mattedfred suggests) plus more...and let's say all the unions get back whatever they lost in CCAA plus more. Now Jazz breaks even or takes a loss? Jazz just paid off a $115M loan, ordered 15 new Q400's, reduced the mark up to Air Canada, invested in Pluna, signed a 2 year contract with TC...do you really want to jeopardize a profitable company that pays it's employees reasonable wages? Is it the top wages in the industry for what you fly...perhaps for some? Is it the lowest wages in the industry...I don't think so. Do you really want to get to a point that by 2020, you are no longer a marketable CPA regional carrier (regardless of what you may think about being a CPA carrier...it is what it is). If the costs are not kept under control, we may all have no jobs in 2020. Remember also that next year, Jazz will be have it`s benchmark audit. This could also hurt the company with the CPA depending on how much the operating costs increase compared to our counterparts. All I am saying is that at the end of the day...for what you do...and for what you fly...is it really as bad as everyone says/thinks it is. Are you willing to risk the profitability of the company over it?
And as for the profit share and Ensemble, it was the equivalent of 4% of my salary. Obviously if your salary increases so does the pay out. But for how long? I hope it does not come to a strike. There are alot of people that make a heck of alot less than you guys that will be laid off as a result.
And if you decide to work to rule...there are consequences for Jazz not meeting our operational targets. I am sure your counterparts at Mesa know what I`m talking about.
vref, first of all, no one is saying we're after 62mil. That is what was given back, second the airline is profitable, but it almost all goes to the share holders in the form of 60 cents a share per year. I believe southwest is giving 2 cents(not sure, something I heard, not read) Guess how many shares have been given to Jazz management as bonuses.
Anyhow, if we get what is deserved(we want), all it will mean is the shareholders can stop pilfuring the company bank accounts and get a more realistic dividend. They currently pay out about 100 million a year and managment reaps a great deal from that, so the sweet part is when we get a raise it will come out of their pockets for a change.
Airmech, if your collective voice was stronger, ie; stronger strike or no vote, you would have done better. But don't sit their and tell me I make enough, when some ramp guys are making more than me. If your group voted strike we would have been cheering from the sidelines, not whining about how you always get what you want.
Airmech, were you concerned about us and our jobs when you voted NO?
Just curious, you know your vote and the rest together with a majority could have had the same outcome, so did you give a shit about us when you voted no?My guess not even in the slightest bit.
Well I AM NOT an AME for Jazz....and I will say Airmech, you (and your group) only have yourselves to thank for your shit wages at Jazz. %2 increase is a fuckin joke and if your group agreed to that crap...well that's your problem.
Lay offs?...You know that is a load of crap.
Good luck to the pilot group, will be tough times I'm sure, I know a lot of you guys have families, bills, etc... so I feel for you. Good luck!
airmech07 wrote:yes we did get screwed, I am an AME and I voted No for our contract. You guys will get what you want you always do and if you don't you walk...then days later the government will mandate back to work legislation. We are canada's airline and we fly more then air canada. I just hope you guys don't go on strike because us mechanics...etc will be layed off
Thats awesome! You come on here and say "How dare you pilots for voting No" and brag about voting no for your own contract!
So Vref ... This is your one and only post on AvCanada and its regarding our outstanding working conditions and pay at Jazz. Interesting that you decided for this to be your one and only post to this forum in over a year since joining.
Jazz is profitable .. Pilot wages (ie. 62 million in concessions) were not the reason for Jazz entering CCAA. Jazz will continue to be profitable even after we get our $62 million in concessions back. Those concessions were a loan .. and the loan is past due.
I just like to read the forum mostly (obviously). Your right, the pilot wages were not the root cause for Jazz entering CCAA nor did my post say that. What I said was if everyone got back what they lost plus more.... It will be easy to see how much the new pilot contract costs the company. Time will tell. Hopefully Jazz is still profitable.
airmech07 wrote: I just hope you guys don't go on strike because us mechanics...etc will be layed off
Soo, when it came time for you to vote for what would benefit YOU and your family where you seriously sitting there going, oh but what about everyone else. If you say yes I'll call bullshit.
If your group settled on 2,2,2 than you got raped. Your worth ALOT more and I believe you know it, just like us pilots know it and are taking back what was our's during a profitable time(pre CCAA) and going to get it now during a again very profitable time.
When I voted yes to the strike I voted thinking what is best for not me alone but ALL pilots in our group and every pilot in Canada. We strike it will suck, but in the end it is going to be better for my industry(Pilots) in all aspects, Us making more means all other companies will follow suit, our lifestyle is better, other company lifestyles will get better, or it better if they wanna keep experience around.
Again, sorry but I will not settle as you guys did.
Let's back whatever they lost in CCAA plus more. Now Jazz breaks even or takes a loss? Say you get back $62M/yr (as mattedfred suggests) plus more..
1. Our proposals are not unreasonable; ALPA has no intention in driving the company into CCAA by asking for more than what the company can afford. We are simply asking for our fare share.
Jazz just paid off a $115M loan, ordered 15 new Q400's
2. Respectfully, it is about Fu@#$ng time they renewed their fleet. The Q400 will pay for itself; it is a far more efficient aircraft than the CRJ 100/200 that they are replacing with. Also the Q400 payments will be cheaper than the leases on the RJs.
Reduced the mark up to Air Canada
3. that is what happens when you put all of your eggs into one basket. Had ST done a better job at diversify the revenue base, the impact with AC could have been less.
Invested in Pluna,
4. Ha! It is pretty pathetic when the company is crying poverty during the conciliation phase of negotiations and yet they are able to find 15 mil. To invest in a foreign airline. If they have no money to pay for skilled labor, they should not be pissing it on a foreign airline. No sympathy from me there.
Signed a 2 year contract with TC
5. Hello? More work for jazz = more revenue for Jazz = more money for employees. Did you really think we are going to fly those 757 for our current wages? Get your head out of the sand buddy.
...do you really want to jeopardize a profitable company that pays its employees reasonable wages? Is it the top wages in the industry for what you fly...perhaps for some? Is it the lowest wages in the industry...I don't think so. Do you really want to get to a point that by 2020, you are no longer a marketable CPA regional carrier (regardless of what you may think about being a CPA carrier...it is what it is). If the costs are not kept under control, we may all have no jobs in 2020. Remember also that next year, Jazz will have its benchmark audit. This could also hurt the company with the CPA depending on how much the operating costs increase compared to our counterparts. All I am saying is that at the end
Of the day...for what you do...and for what you fly...is it really as bad as everyone says/thinks it is. Are you willing to risk the profitability of the company over it?
5. Read my first point. Our proposals WILL NOT jeopardize Jazz. Incompetent management will. The pie is already there. We are not asking for a bigger pie. We are simply asking for our fair share of the pie. Management will have to give us a few of their slices. If they do not like that they are free to leave.
6. Respectfully I do not consider below poverty wages (FO pay) reasonable. Your “CPA carrier it is what it is is” comment hogwash. I find it hypocritical when a management team compares our WAWCON to the regionals in the States while their salaries and bonuses are far more than the execs from the regionals in the States and even more that some of the MAINLINE carriers in the States.
And as for the profit share and Ensemble, it was the equivalent of 4% of my salary. Obviously if your salary increases so does the pay out. But for how long?
7.Our Ensemble and profit share programs are a joke!!!
I hope it does not come to a strike. There are allot of people that make a heck of allot less than you guys that will be laid off as a result.
And if you decide to work to rule...there are consequences for Jazz not meeting our operational targets. I am sure your counterparts at Mesa know what I`m talking about.
8. Yup, you are right. People will be laid off, there will be consequences to the CPA and the TC work, the investors and shareholders will be affected, and some managers WILL be fired. Well, I guess management better smarten up, treat us with respect and start bargaining in good faith
Vref, we are doing ourselves no good by accepting the company's status quo/concessionary CA. This is pure management greed. period.
Employee wages have decreased over time, taking into account for inflation. Jazz pilots continue to subsidize the Company to the tune of $62 annually.
Distributions have remained steady and JALP is predicting that this will continue. JAZ.UN pays higher distributions than any other airline income trust in Canada and the most profitable airline in North America. Half a billion dollars will be paid out to unit holders by September 2010. This is nearly equivalent to the pre-CCAA cost of the pilot CBA over the same period.
Executive compensation has increased and exceeded inflation over the same period.
Recent “Bonuses” for Jazz Executives paid out in February 2010
(The following are only a portion of the “all in” compensation of Jazz Executives. The value of the Jazz Trust Units has been monetized using the closing price of Jazz Income Trust Units on 16 April 2010)
Colin Copp: +38,507 units +13,258 units = 51,765 units @ $5.07 = $262,448.55
Rick Flynn: +19,194 units +9,058 units + 2,724 units = 30,976 units @ $5.07 = $157,048.32
Steven Linthwaite: +20,666 units +8,789 units = 29,455 units @ $5.07 = $149,336.85
Jolene Mahody: +40,047 units +13,318 units = 53,365 units @ $5.07 = $270,560.55
Joseph D. Randell: +164,611 units +78,189 units +15,254 units = 258,054 units @ $5.07 = $1,308,333.78
Allan D. Rowe: +46,281 units +23,602 units = 69,883 units @ $5.07 = $354,306.81
Barbara Snowdon: +18,128 units +8,947 units = 27,075 units @ $5.07 = $137,270.25
Richard Steer: +21,264 units +10,822 units +5,223 units = 37,309 units @ $5.07 = $189,156.63
Scott Tapson: +19,491 units +10,123 units +2,002 units = 31,616 units @ $5.07 = $160,293.12
I will add that Jazz management has had 7 years to prepare for this, and it is quite evident that they have done NOTHING. If they had utilized the tools the pilot group has given them to the fullest, we would not be at this point. If they made a reasonable offer prior to the strike vote happening, it would have been a LOT less expensive for the company, and a LOT less painful for all involved. I do not wish to go on strike. I can not afford to go on strike. I WILL go on strike if this company does not make a meaningful and respectful attempt to negotiate. I WILL go on strike if our MEC feels it is necessary to achieve the Career Contract this pilot group deserves. It has been said before, we are not asking for the whole pie, just our fair share.
Comments like Vref's are exactly what we will expect in the upcoming 2 weeks, and Vref, I can see right through it.
I don't know if you belong to management, or belong to another concerned employee group. All I have to say is....
What is done is done.
The vote has been tabulated.
The message is crystal clear (or it should be).
There is no GOING BACK!!!
If you both don't want to see a strike, people being laid off etc. Instead of telling us here that we should take it up the A$$, I would encourage you to write to management and urge them to bargain seriously and in good faith . We are not falling for the fear mongering, and doom and gloom stuff anymore.
Do we as pilots want to shut the airline down? Off course not, in fact I believe this pilot group cares more about the long term viability of this airline than our present group of managers(and perhaps even more than any other employee groups). However, we refuse to work under the status quo.
The ball is in their court. Ultimately it will be up to them to prevent a strike.
This pilot group has sent its message and we WILL NOT blink. We have made that abundantly clear.
The above 4 posts were spot on. Its unfortunate that the maintinance staff got such a rotten deal. It didn't get in by a very large margin. It was good for the B scalers who can get off the B scale but the A scale mechs got totally screwed and they know it.
I feel good knowing we had a 91% voter turnout and are in 99% solidarity. We are tired of management taking advantage of us as cheap labour while they fill their own pockets.
WOW, I am so impressed with my fellow Jazz folks here and everywhere taking a stand for our profession. Hopefully this will encourage other pilot groups in other companies to stop being treated like common labour and treated like the skilled professionals that we are. If everyone stopped accepting this it wouldn't happen. We'll all see what happens when a unified pilot group sticks together to make good changes.
Well I have read everyone's point of view and now it is my turn to give my two bits.
What I understand of a pilots life it seems to be a fair amount of work and inconvience for wages which other professions make with less sacrifice. However, that is the way it is in
certain industries the pie is only so big and it has to be divided out between all the stake holders based on fair and unfair standards. I am sure you all realize the canadian air industry (and
many other countries industries) is in existence for polictical reasons and not economic reasons. If it was total economic - you would be an american feeder line.
So you as pilots have made your career choice and that industry sucks wind - if you want to make real cash get another job.
As a unit holder I have read your bais drivel about how the unit holders have suck the company dry. What a bunch of B.S. First of all the 60 cents a share is probably not high enough to
cover the risk or your industry because the employees and management of this industry can't seem to see the forest for the trees and keep going broke. Secondly, if you geniuses would look at
the long term stock price you will see that the market capitalization of Jazz has lost over half since its inception so this money the unit holders have received in distribution is most likely just the long term unit holder's getting their ORIGINAL MONEY BACK - FORGET A PAYMENT FOR RETURN FOR RISK.
I hope you settle for a reasonable amount and that DOES NOT AFFECT THE UNIT HOLDER PAYOUT, because it is possible that your pension investments which pay your defined
benefit pension may hold your JAZ.UN units as an investment. BUT WAIT I am sure you do not have enough faith in your company to invest in it.
PS. I am not a long term unit holder I am a short term holder and I have done well on JAZ.UN and have sold out and taken my profits off the table. However, I learned a few things from investing and working on my own. 1) The airline industry and the forest industry always loses money in the long term. 2) Do not make a long term investment out of a company with a labour union as they always drive it into the toilet.
Good Luck you can always get retraining at a community college
At the end of the day, we haven't had a pay raise since 2004, and management is asking us for further concessions, all this while they are very handsomely giving themselves massive bonuses. Therefore, you arguing that $0.60 cents/unit is perhaps not good enough for you, well that's not going to drive a wedge in this pilot group either, because to us it is too much.
I also notice your subtle disregard for this profession; but as these 1,500 pilots will tell you again, even that won't drive a wedge in between us. We know we are the professionals that run and babysit this airline day-in and day-out, safely with some of the best performance figures around. We will get a fair contract.
Dickholder oh I mean unit holder, if you dumped your holdings, what do you care? Why would I invest in any airline with all the greedy shortsighted executives robbing them blind. The only reason any management type give a crap about the unit holders, is because they are handsomely rewarded with units themselves.
If anyone cares about the longevity of the company, it's the unionized people with a retirement in mind. Most of us here don't want to start over at another company, so driving it into the ground is not going to happen by us. Your friendly neihborhood thieves(execs) however only care about making enough money now, so that when they drive the company to the ground, they can sit back on the deck of their beachfront proerty sipping on 20 year old scotch, laughing about how they were legally able to steal millions, not giving a crap about the 4 or 5000 employees out of work.
Also, maybe you should try the auto sector next, since the airline and forest sector aren't working. I hear all the unionized workers gave a bunch back not that long ago. Now would be a good time to get in, you know before the union types get their greedy hands on the profits.
To moreccplease - I agree you do need something, how it is paid may make all the difference read the following.
Just a question before I start in mattedfred's post what does SN? & MC? stand for being outside this industry I am unfamiliar
with the acronyms.
And to the mbav8r - to bad your handle didn't stand for master of business administration (mba) because you would be able to understand the following,
instead you will blindly walk to your union stewards ignorant tune.
To the paranoid union members I am not management, I am a private citizen who prior to you pilots voting for a strike mandate
was a unitholder in JAZ.UN period. My background is a private business owner in a low margin business similar to the airline industry.
Margins of 10 - 15% before indirect overhead costs. Where 80-90 hour weeks by the owners were not uncommon, but hard work and hope
have provided its rewards. I came to this forum to see the pilots perspective on their negoitiations and what they are asking for
for wage increases. If I gathered right from the posts and the "rumor mill" that the air mechanic must have heard it is a 5-5-5 over
three years. Which would have about an additional $ 17 MM impact on your bottom line for each year for a cummulative total of
$45MM after three years. The oil increase will probably have a $ 100 - 150 MM impact on your bottom line and so the question
remains can you pass all that increased costs to air canada and the customer or does the unit holders have to eat it. This pie
is very small.
Now back to your negotiations. I am just giving you a unitholders point of view. As we do not need to keep our money in JAZ.UN.
You are just one of a million places to park our cash. And we are not that rat you have on this post. (Speaking of subtle disregard)
Most of your unit holders are probably people like yourselves or the pension managers which are trying to maximize there return
to try and meet those crazy "defined benefit pension plan" expectations some short term thinking union contract negotiator
got for you pilots. If you think the unitholders are undeserving, then how is it in the same breathe you want to have a company
pay you good wages now, good benefits now, let you retire early and pay you for another 40 years till you die. There is not
a company or a government (speaking of Greece/Europe etc.) on this planet that can afford those costs. And a low margin competitive
industry like the airline industry hasn't done it and never will. You can write all the contracts you want if the economics aren't
their they just aren't their.
It is not about a wedge in your solidarity it is the cold hard economic facts, something I bet your shop steward doesn't even
understand. But just like the investors that fooled Bernad Madoff it will be the blind leading the blind and in the end those
poor saps which do not want to see the cold hard facts will say it is the gov't's fault. So they should subsidize this delusion.
As per JAZZ's finacial audits it started with a deem capital of $ 246 Million (MM) in 2005 it has earned up to Dec.31, 2009
$15MM ('06) + $14MM ('07) - ($10MM) ('08) + $93MM ('09). It has raised capital of 795MM ('07) and distributed $20MM('06) +
$ 107MM ('07) + $125MM ('08) + $103MM('09). So the current Equity in your company JAZZ is calculated as follows from 2005 to 2009.
Beg.RE + Capital Raised(C) +Income/-Loss(I/L) - Distributions(D) repeated by year:
$ 246 + 15(I)-20(D)+795(C)+14(I)-107(D)-10(L)+93(I)-103(D)+6(misc) => Ending Retained Earnings $ 804MM Dec 2009.
During that same time the stock of Jazz has gone from 8-10/unit down to 4.20 per unit - a drop in value of over 500MM where as
distribution where only $355MM. From an investment point of view the management and employees of Jazz have screwed the investors.
Also from an investor point of view this company started with $1 billion dollars and has earned $112MM over four years that is less
than 2.5% per year worse than a GIC over the same time frame. In addiion, that windfall gain in earnings for 2008 is not coming back.
Your company only made that because of the world financial crisis and the precipitous drop in the world oil price. Look at the income
statement yourself the only line item which changed was the fuel costs everything else for the most part stayed that same. Your union
piped pipers are going to complain that management paid off debt instead of giving it to the deserving pilots or invested in
another company down south. Your management probably did those things because debt is what kills a company when the economy goes south
- just ask the greek and spanish citizens. And they are probably investing south because your company just missed the angel of death
last year when air canada just about went bankrupt two times in a row. Those decision are long term decisions which hopefully will
save your long term careers. There is a reason accountants have a special note put in the financial statements when a company has
an economic dependence on one customer,because it goes against the tried and tested words of advice - DO NOT PUT YOUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET.
So your statements that the unitholders are sucking the cash out is just plain wrong. The next time you are sitting in those fancy
pilot chairs and making your bread and butter using that technological marvel they call autopilot. Remember it was not your money
which gave you that seat and your pay cheque it was those unit holders cash because you did not finance it yourself. They deserve a
better return than 2.5%.
And this gets to the whole point of I why I gave my two bits, it is because unions always want to blame someone. The management's bonus,
the unitholders distributions, the governments policies but never there short sight ignorant point of view. Your raise should be a
bonus based on profitability and nothing more.
It is a fact of this world that management get big bonuses. I don't like it as an investor either but I cannot change the this fact
of life and neither can you or your union. And if you look at your company's financial statments the management's bonus does not
affect the corpate success one way or another. If you want those bonuses then go and become management that door is open to anyone
which sets it as his goal and is able to succed to get it. You can blame management all you want but you are eating your own young.
For your industry it is airport fees, employee wages, airplanes and oil that are the major cost inputs. The only reason your company
made money in 2008 was because oil prices crashed every other expense is comparable. Your new CPA agreement with that pitiful
12.5% mark up, and the new price of oil in the $ 70 - 80 dollars is what is killing Jazz and your stupid union negotiators are leading
you down the garden path on this 60 cents distribution issue. Like I said I dropped all your stock in 5 minutes on the news that
you voted to strike, because when I see the renegotiated CPA, the cost of fuel, the high unemployment, the labour strife, etc your
industry is a risk nightmare from an investor point of view. So understand this the reason you paid that debt down early was because
oil went from 140/bb down to $ 40/bb and air Canada could not change the CPA fast enough to prevent IT from losing its a$$.
It wasn't management's good deeds or bad deeds it was strickly the world economy all of which has changed now and oil is 100% higher
than it was in 2008 and your CPA is 5% less and on top of it you want to add 15% over three years to the cost base - that will make
this company fly like a rock.
So put your union paranoia aside, and go and investigate the facts for yourself and remember your worst enemy is yourself.
Would you put money in Jazz right now with that new cost structure? And if you wouldn't then why would you put your life and
career in it? It is the same thing.
And if you would put your money into Jazz then negotiate a contact where you maintain a high profitability because that is the only
guarantee you have if you are going to stay in the airline industry. And if you don't then be the big responsible pilots you say
you are and when your stock price has dropped to nothing and you need to raise money for those new planes then get your union
to cough up its own cash and you also dig into your life savings like the rest of us have to do. But then that would
require you to believe in yourself and in your company and then you would see success is not achieve by a union contract.
PS. to 4Stroke this is not a laughing matter this is your life I am just an observer. I have removed my skin in the game when
I sold my stock. I look at this as an outside obsever and someone who ran a business in a low margin industry like the airline
industry - so laugh all you want it doesn't affect me one way or another I will not be on that picket line getting handouts as
I rub my hands over the oil drum and eat food bank meals. This is your life enjoy it and make sure you rub shoulder with the
brotherhood because that is all the 90% plus vote is going to get you in that low margin airline industry. PS it is not your fault
some industries are just mature low margin industries.
Something you should know, we pilots have a very short attention span and have great difficulty reading long disertations like you last post. Let's keep it short and sweet.
UnitHolder, you seem informed, except for it's 450 million to the unit holders and fuel is a pass through cost to AC. The original investors have made most if not all back and after the pilot group agreed to give back 62mil/annum, don't you think it's time we are rewarded for the sacrifice, after all what is an Airline without Pilots? Certainly I would think a unitholder would understand, the planes don't move and make money without pilots. Maybe there's a market for charging admission to sit in an airplane and watch movies at the gate. you could even charge a premium for the business class seats.
I'll keep working on other marketing ideas in the meantime. I'm sure movie admissions won't cover cost. Oh here's one, take your kids and put them in the flight deck. We'll put a hat on them, take a picture and charge 20 bucks, oh that's good. I better send Joe a memo about that, he's sure to get a big bonus for thinking outside the box.
