Thunder MU2 in Armstrong

[Brown Bear]

The NOTAM as posted by Doc:

CYYW RSC 12/30 100 PERCENT SNOW COVERED 4 INCHES 1011261300
SN REMOVAL IN PROGRESS. VERIFY RWY UNOBSTRUCTED PRIOR TO LDG.

Am I the only one that is a little disappointed in the reactions from the experienced aviators here?


Some very expensive and potentially dangerous assumptions are being made.

What "assumptions" would these be? That a community might actually "clean" a runway?
And, what "reactions" from experienced aviators disappoint you? The fact that, with the information given, we all would have fallen into the same "trap"? How much MORE information would you require before you actually make a flight? Do you ever launch? Ever landed in snow? Perhaps you can share with us your method of judging snow depth with your landing lights? Or, how you know when a NOTAM is lying to you? I'd sure like to know the answers. Share with us, your wisdom.

[LazyBoy Bandit]

All else aside, wouldn't 4" of snow not help you slow down? I would think if you tried taking off in that much snow it would make your takeof run longer, no?
If on final, the runway was still snow covered, would one not have to assume there was still 4" of snow on it still?
Anyone know how much snow was actually on the runway at the time?

[J31]

Well Brown Bear…here you go.

What "assumptions" would these be? That a community might actually "clean" a runway?

No, assuming that the snow clearing job had been completed when the current RSC still states FOUR INCHES OF SNOW on the runway!

And, what "reactions" from experienced aviators disappoint you?

I am disappointed in the attitude to just ignore a NOTAM because the snow “should be cleared”.

The fact that, with the information given, we all would have fallen into the same "trap"?

I am sorry that an experienced pilot found the runway was not in the condition he expected. Given the current NOTAM I would have expected the runway to be in poor shape unless other valid sources or an updated RSC indicated otherwise.

How much MORE information would you require before you actually make a flight?

An acceptable RSC or some valid info indicating that the runway was suitable for type.

Do you ever launch?

As long as they pay to launch, but it does not mean you have to land if you are unable to get an acceptable report.

Ever landed in snow?

Many times….small wheels, big wheels, wheel/skis, on snow covered gravel, pavement, ice, bog…Been in snow so deep I had trouble getting the doors open, however that was on skis. Landed a King Air in 6 inches of snow when I was told it had been cleared and thankfully I managed to keep from wrecking it.

Perhaps you can share with us your method of judging snow depth with your landing lights?

You made my point! It is very difficult to judge snow depth from the air day or night. Thus reports from the ground are the tools we use.

Or, how you know when a NOTAM is lying to you?

How was the NOTAM lying to you, was there more snow than reported?

Some people are hung up on the “SN REMOVAL IN PROGRESS. VERIFY RWY UNOBSTRUCTED PRIOR TO LDG. This part is the legal disclaimer to alert pilots that there “may” be snow removal equipment on the runway. Maybe you are too young to have heard of or have forgotten Cranbrook in 1978. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_We ... Flight_314

I am not trying to defend the airport operator. Clearly they dropped the ball and were very slow to clean up this runway. But when they did a NOTAM was issued indicating a new RSC.

[Redneck_pilot86]

How can anyone read "SN REMOVAL IN PROGRESS" as anything other than snow removal in progress? The NOTAM clearly stated that the operators were working on clearing the runway, and the incident was 11 hours later. It does not take 11 hours to clear 4 inches of snow off of a runway, so why would anyone think that the runway would not be at least partially cleared? Perhaps the NOTAM should have read CYYW RSC 12/30 100 PERCENT SNOW COVERED 4 INCHES 1011261300
MAINTENANCE PERSONNEL NOT DOING THEIR JOBS. VERIFY RWY UNOBSTRUCTED PRIOR TO LDG

[Doc]

J31 wants a NOTAM to be issued, stating that the snow has, indeed been removed, and the new RSC is such and such. You'll be waiting a very long time, my friend. The NOTAM, as issued is totally normal for the area. It was not ignored by the crew...it was ignored by MTC on the ground at Armstrong.
Hope Santa was good to all of you..

[AOW]

J31 wants a NOTAM to be issued, stating that the snow has, indeed been removed, and the new RSC is such and such. You'll be waiting a very long time, my friend. The NOTAM, as issued is totally normal for the area. It was not ignored by the crew...it was ignored by MTC on the ground at Armstrong.
Hope Santa was good to all of you..

My understanding is that this incident has shaken things up at the MTO RNTO
office. Don't be surprised if exactly that is the new standard for MTO airports! Now that would be a welcomed change!!!!!!

[Doc]

Although I have personally not had a problem (knock wood) with the system as is, that surely was a "wake up" call to all. I'd like to see it go something like this.

NOTAM Runways closed.

We all stay home till we see..

NOTAM Snow removal complete....runways open.

Wouldn't that be a simple solution?

I know this (or something very similar) is the direction MTC will have to go. It's called CYAWP! And, it's long overdue.

[J31]

J31 wants a NOTAM to be issued, stating that the snow has, indeed been removed, and the new RSC is such and such. You'll be waiting a very long time, my friend. The NOTAM, as issued is totally normal for the area. It was not ignored by the crew...it was ignored by MTC on the ground at Armstrong.
Hope Santa was good to all of you..

Well I do not have access to historical NOTAM’s thus I do not have any RSC reports from before the incident. However Doc, there has been a new RSC for Armstrong every day since this discussion started. Maybe there has been a shake-up and improved the reporting? The latest yesterday CYYW RSC 12/30 90 PERCENT COMPACTED SNOW 10 PERCENT ICE PATCHES
1012291430. Bet ya there will be a new one out today!

Happy New Year!

[J31]

Although I have personally not had a problem (knock wood) with the system as is, that surely was a "wake up" call to all. I'd like to see it go something like this.

NOTAM Runways closed.

We all stay home till we see..

NOTAM Snow removal complete....runways open.

Wouldn't that be a simple solution?

I know this (or something very similar) is the direction MTC will have to go. It's called CYAWP! And, it's long overdue.

Why close the runway with 4 inches of snow? Sure it is not suitable for some aircraft but many others can safely use it. Twin Otter, C206, C208, wheel skis, come to mind. Heck some guys said they could operate King Air or Metro into that……..however they have bigger balls than me and I have flown both!

[J31]

Wow these guys are out of control another RSC for Armstrong CYYW RSC 12/30 100 PERCENT LOOSE SN 1/4 INS OVER COMPACTED SN
1012301415

[Hedley]

Why close the runway with 4 inches of snow?

One of the hats I wear is operator of a certified airport, and let me assure you, I will not hesitate to issue a NOTAM to close a runway any time it is appropriate to do so.

If our snow removal equipment is on the runway, the runway will be NOTAM'd closed.

If there is 4 inches of snow on the runway, and our snow removal equipment is broken, the runway will be NOTAM'd closed until the equipment is repaired and the snow is removed.

In my subjective opinion, if the runway conditions are such that a solo student pilot would have difficulty landing (eg 20 knot direct crosswind, 100% smooth, clear ice with a thin layer of water on top), the runway will be NOTAM'd closed until the conditions improve.

If you think it's your right to land on a runway that is NOTAM'd closed, well, get back to us and let us know how that worked out for you.