We call to compliment and you guys just call to complain.

I worked north tower four sessions in a row on the dual-arrive 15s that afternoon and it felt like it was a lot more than a 50 rate. The number of offloads on 15L was a bit out of control at times.

Thanks guys/gals.

I thought about the mix of traffic at YYZ versus LHR just after I hit submit last night ...
Pretty hard to provide wake separation by time.

It's always a pleasure working with you folks.

rxl

Do we need to start a Tower-Terminal thread haha.

Married a Canadian wrote:Cossack...tower called down the other day to compliment the arrival spacing....

Whoa whoa whoa... You're telling me there's a tower that actually does that?!?

cyeg66 wrote:

Married a Canadian wrote:Cossack...tower called down the other day to compliment the arrival spacing....

Whoa whoa whoa... You're telling me there's a tower that actually does that?!?

I'm thinking hoaxer activity.

cyeg66 wrote:

Married a Canadian wrote:Cossack...tower called down the other day to compliment the arrival spacing....

Whoa whoa whoa... You're telling me there's a tower that actually does that?!?

We'll start as soon as we get compliments on our departure spacing!

NJ wrote: We'll start as soon as we get compliments on our departure spacing!

Funny you should mention that. I have before. Believe it or not, some of your group still (appear to) have fun doing the job and like to push it a little more than the rest. I've given them kudos on occasion. Besides, when you're getting a shitty product, don't tell me you're not turning on the tunable to arrival freq to hear who's working....

A couple questions about arrivals. During the 0630 post noise abatement rush, most of us will start decent prior to 630. Is there anyway that the ATIS can reflect the post 0630 runway usage? If it were to include ARIVAL RUNWAY 15L active but expecting RUNWAY X and Y at ZZ time it would help out. Usually you can take a guess on runway but it's only correct 50% of the time. For us it's nice to have everything loaded into the FMCG prior to starting down as it does help out our descent planning and it's nice to have all our briefings out of the way while in cruise.

Second question: Many times we are given a speed and altitude assignment. Say we are at 250 and 7,000feet it may be 210 and 4,000. Some times we are told speed or altitude first which is obvious. My normal technique if not specified would be to get the altitude first and then once the airplane starts levelling out change it's target speed to the new one. The main reasons are the fact the airplane descends better with the higher speed, and it does a very poor job of descending if you're trying to bring the speed back at the same time. It goes into a 5-700fpm descent while taking forever to slow down, which is your preference? I can see speed being a priority for spacing issues, but if not told one way or the other it is easier for us to prioritize the altitude as the speed burns well in level flight or in the base turn (even if we have not had a chance to slow down by this point).

Thanks guys!

ZBBYLW wrote:A couple questions about arrivals. During the 0630 post noise abatement rush, most of us will start decent prior to 630. Is there anyway that the ATIS can reflect the post 0630 runway usage? If it were to include ARIVAL RUNWAY 15L active but expecting RUNWAY X and Y at ZZ time it would help out. Usually you can take a guess on runway but it's only correct 50% of the time. For us it's nice to have everything loaded into the FMCG prior to starting down as it does help out our descent planning and it's nice to have all our briefings out of the way while in cruise.

You only guess right 50% of the time?

After 6:30 you can expect to land on 5 or 06L/R or 23 or 24L/R unless there is a 25kt+ crosswind component. The actual runways aren't decided on until maybe 6:10 when demand, staffing and runway availability have all been discussed between the tower and terminal supervisors. Even if we put out an ATIS at 6:15 it would probably be too late to help you arriving at 6:30.

ZBBYLW wrote:Second question: Many times we are given a speed and altitude assignment. Say we are at 250 and 7,000feet it may be 210 and 4,000. Some times we are told speed or altitude first which is obvious. My normal technique if not specified would be to get the altitude first and then once the airplane starts levelling out change it's target speed to the new one. The main reasons are the fact the airplane descends better with the higher speed, and it does a very poor job of descending if you're trying to bring the speed back at the same time. It goes into a 5-700fpm descent while taking forever to slow down, which is your preference? I can see speed being a priority for spacing issues, but if not told one way or the other it is easier for us to prioritize the altitude as the speed burns well in level flight or in the base turn (even if we have not had a chance to slow down by this point).

Thanks guys!

This is more for Terminal but I have some experience in this from the distant past and I know that here they use similar techniques here. If we want you down quickly we'll let you do that first then reduce speed. "Descend to 4000 feet, then reduce speed 210" sound familiar?

ZBBYLW

In relation to your speed question....I fall into the category of telling you to descend first then bring back the speed (for the simple question of physics that you mention). I think most terminal controllers would want you to get the altitude down first for the simple reason that it is more awkward to turn you base in the sequence if you are still too high. Most speed control instructions will occur from the downwind through base leg so the speed usually needs to be bled off from about 6000ft down. From the bedposts...12000ft down..we aren't usually to concerned about what speed you are doing as we can vector you for the sequence...and a common tool for us...turn you into the wind (especially from LINNG on the 24s) to slow you down if need be.
Every so often we will assign you 220kts out by the bedposts...and that is usually for sequencing into the downwind. In this case it won't usually be given with a descent instruction as you will be about number 8 at this point with traffic ahead of you occupying the lower altitudes.

On the 06s of course...when you are coming in from YWT with the tailwind...I shudder to think how awkward it is to descend for the ILS and stabilise and usually slow back to 170kts within 15 miles of the airport.

RE The morning runways...as Cossack says....the day shift staff start arriving from about 545am onwards.
Although the midnight controllers in both tower and the TCU could take a guess at what runways could be used for the 0630 arrivals...they don't have the full idea of staffing on both sides, unservicabilities and runway availablity. This only becomes known from about 6am onwards when the full day shift complement for both sides arrive....and of course by then....you are in the initial descent phase.

The rough guide would be that if you are coming in from Linng or YWT then expect a southerly runway...if you are coming in from FLINE or IMEBA expect a northerly runway. RAGID...50/50. This is very rough though as this depends on the runway availablity and also runway balance.
You could make it more fun on your early morning arrivals by making monetary bets in the cockpit on what runway you think you might get?

Married a Canadian wrote:The rough guide would be that if you are coming in from Linng or YWT then expect a southerly runway...if you are coming in from FLINE or IMEBA expect a northerly runway. RAGID...50/50.

This is my problem it seems! If I am on a curfew restricted flight I seem to be coming from YYT/YDF or YHZ on the RAGID arrival. We usually do place a bet, one guy thinking 5, the other 6R and knowing our luck it will be on 6L! I was not aware at how complicated the runway determinations can be for you guys and yes if we are landing just after 630, it would seem it's too late by the time we start down. This is why it's awesome you guys are on the forum and making things more transparent for us airplane drivers!

Married a Canadian wrote:In relation to your speed question....I fall into the category of telling you to descend first then bring back the speed

I would say about 20-40 % of the time we get a "descent 4,000 then 210 kts" I have been treating other situations when not specifically told the same way.

Married a Canadian wrote:On the 06s of course...when you are coming in from YWT with the tailwind...I shudder to think how awkward it is to descend for the ILS and stabilise and usually slow back to 170kts within 15 miles of the airport.

Yes somedays it is more difficult than others, with the speed all the way back to 170 being the major hinderance. We do have the drag to make it work most of the time, though it's more work than other days.

cossack wrote:After 6:30 you can expect to land on 5 or 06L/R or 23 or 24L/R unless there is a 25kt+ crosswind component. The actual runways aren't decided on until maybe 6:10 when demand, staffing and runway availability have all been discussed between the tower and terminal supervisors. Even if we put out an ATIS at 6:15 it would probably be too late to help you arriving at 6:30.

I would not have figured the determination would have been so late, rather some formula which could be applied based on various weather and runway requirements.