FP today

[leadfoot]

There is greed and then there is greed.

[Rockie]

There is greed and then there is greed.

Here we go with the greed again...

[accumulous]

There is greed and then there is greed.

There's Law and then there's more Law. Good luck with the Red Herrings.

http://www.parl.gc.ca/
http://cas-ncr-nter03.cas-satj.gc.ca/po ... f_en/Index
http://www.chrc-ccdp.ca/default-eng.aspx
http://www.chrt-tcdp.gc.ca/

[777longhaul]

For James

Please re-read item # 9 of the CHRT order. This is coming in a large scale soon, and acpa is fooling its pilots, junior, middle, senior, into thinking that this is not going to cost them hard earned money. acpa, needs to join the rest of the unions at AC, and the rest of the world operators, and get going on this age 60 issue. It is wasting millions of dollars on a lost cause.

X. Order

[174] The Tribunal orders as follows:

1) The respondents are to cease applying to the complainants, s.5.1 of the Air Canada Pilots Pension Plan and the corresponding provisions of the collective agreement Plan;

2) The complainants are to be reinstated to employment as pilots with Air Canada as of the date of this decision on condition that they have a valid pilot licence, a valid medical certificate showing that they are fit to fly a commercial aircraft under the applicable Transport Canada medical standards and a current instrument flight rating;

3) Upon reinstatement, the complainants shall be enrolled in the next available training course for the equipment that they are entitled to fly according to their seniority. Upon the successful completion of their training, they shall be scheduled for flying at the next opportunity for monthly bidding and placed on the pilot position list;

4) Upon reinstatement, Vilven is to hold seniority number 751 and Kelly, seniority number 5 on the pilots' seniority list;

5) Upon reinstatement, the complainants are to receive the wages and benefits of an active employee including continual accrual of pension benefits on the same terms and conditions as before their retirement;

6) The complainants are to be compensated by the respondents for lost income for the period from September 1, 2009 to the date of their reinstatement as active employees. The compensation is to be calculated on the basis of the monthly salary for the position of 81 hours of flying per month, averaged at half-day, half-night rates of pay, plus overseas premium pay for 71 hours. The compensation shall include any profit sharing/bonus paid in that period. Vilven shall be compensated at the salary rate of an A340 FO and Kelly at the salary rate of a B777 Captain until April 30, 2010 and thereafter at the salary rate of a B777 FO.

7) The compensation for lost wages shall be net of the amounts of the pension paid to the complainants from September 1, 2009 to the date of their reinstatement.

The respondents are to pay interest on the net amount of the compensation from September 1, 2009 until the compensation is paid. The amount of the interest shall be calculated on the basis set out by Ms. Leslie in her expert report (Exhibit AC-13, as am. by AC-13A) and as agreed with by the complainants.





9) Air Canada is to pay fifty per cent and ACPA is to pay fifty per cent of the net compensation and profit sharing/bonus and the interest payable.



Signed by

J. Grant Sinclair



OTTAWA, Ontario

November 8, 2010

[vic777]

9) Air Canada is to pay fifty per cent and ACPA is to pay fifty per cent of the net compensation and profit sharing/bonus and the interest payable.

Can ACPA avoid this assessment by ceasing to exist? Obviously ACPA doesn't have the money, where would they get it? Would the Company offer ACPA a "way out", if only they would "sell out" the troops? Are new hires still joining ACPA?

[Rockie]

Would the Company offer ACPA a "way out", if only they would "sell out" the troops?

This is a real danger as I see it. Air Canada pilot union officers have a long and infamous history of doing exactly that for their own purposes, and the last few months have proven we still cannot trust them behind closed doors despite the apparent house cleaning. Nothing less than a complete public airing of everything to do with this issue including costs accrued and all correspondence on the matter is acceptable to help prevent another sell out.

I'm not holding my breath though because I think ACPA is scared to death of the membership finding out how badly they have mishandled this issue. There is little doubt in my mind the entire age 60 committee quit because they don't want to be around when the whole house of cards they built comes crashing down.

[Morry Bund]

I'm not holding my breath though because I think ACPA is scared to death of the membership finding out how badly they have mishandled this issue. There is little doubt in my mind the entire age 60 committee quit because they don't want to be around when the whole house of cards they built comes crashing down.

I think that you are indeed onto something here, Rockie. ACPA has not yet told the membership that it wrote a cheque to Air Canada for over $100,000 to pay for its share of the damage award to Vilven and Kelly. That is the first cheque of many, for so far over 150 pilots who are in the queue to receive at least the same amount of damages as a result of ACPA's refusal to independently assess the situation it is facing.

Where is the accountabilty? Exactly how much has the Association spent so far on three separate components of this venture: (1) legal fees and disbursements; (2) internal costs, such as Committee expenses and flight displacement costs for the hearings and for meetings with legal counsel; and (3) damages paid. What is the projected costs for these three items in the next six months? Year?

We already know that ACPA hiked its membership dues as a result of an overrun of expenses on the Age 60 issue. How is it going to handle the next financial shock? And what is it going to tell its membership? "We thought we were right?" "We had no choice but to defend the contract, no matter how illegal it was?" "At least we delayed it for five years?" "It was worth every penny?"

More importantly, now that the government has clearly stated that mandatory retirement is going to be repealed sooner rather than later, now that it has warned employers and unions to start reviewing their collective agreements to prepare for the impending changes, what steps has ACPA taken to follow its advice? From what I can see, it has chosen to simply throw more money at it, hoping or praying that it will go away.

Perhaps someone on this “new” MEC can offer some comment here about the strategy? What is the plan? What kind of advice is the MEC getting, from whom?

[Johnny Mapleleaf]

Perhaps someone on this “new” MEC can offer some comment here about the strategy? What is the plan? What kind of advice is the MEC getting, from whom?

Here is their answer:

“This decision reconfirms our belief that we are on solid ground in our approach to the age of retirement issue,” Captain Strachan said. “We believe our members’ have the right to negotiate a common age of retirement through collective bargaining and we remain confident that we will overcome any legal attack on our rights.”

Source: http://www.acpa.ca/index.php/ci_id/68319/la_id/1.htm

Hello?

[Understated]

"Where is the accountabilty?

Does the MEC regularly meet and review a proposed budget of financial outlays? If so, is this budget item actually reviewed, or is it automatically endorsed and approved on the basis of the 2006 Pilot Survey and subsequent "directions" from the membership? What type of briefing package goes into the decision to approve this budget or to keep funding this sink hole, especially in light of the government's recent announcement of repealing mandatory retirement?

Has the MEC struck a new Committee to actually consider the ramifications of the impending repeal of mandatory retirement and how to adapt to the implementation of the changed law, with recommendations to the MEC and a proposed action plan? If not, why not? Is the MEC still under any illusion that this is not something that has to be dealt with because it hasn't yet happened?

[vic777]

Is the MEC still under any illusion that this is not something that has to be dealt with because it hasn't yet happened?

We will soon find out if there is/was an Alternate, and if the Alternate is WOXOF. The train wreck analogy is looking good.

[Rockie]

And what is it going to tell its membership?

The union was very careful to provide an escape route for themselves by holding the vote in 2006. They knew back in 2005 that mandatory retirement was ending and that they couldn't do anything about it. They also knew from their own research that ending mandatory retirement would be beneficial for the pension plan. Yet they decided to fight it anyway for whatever reasons they might have had (their own advancement perhaps?), and they sold it to the membership by carefully controlling the information they put out on it. Since the vote they have continued to mislead the membership using the same carefully controlled information to make it seem like they would win, while telling them nothing about the cost or the fact they were going to inevitably lose.

Now they will fall back on the old "we had to do what the membership wanted us to do" excuse. Most people will buy it too.

I think the previous MEC had no choice but to follow the path they took.

[777longhaul]

The old saying comes to mind:

The GREATER THE LIE, the greater the believers.

[Mig29]

Hey all of you "wanna fly till I die" diehards! I just have a news flash what is happening at CAW negotiations regarding pension plans and what is the cost for creating no age limit retirement, since even there you are allowed to work past 65.

Bottom line is, I said all along, that once you open that can of worms and push to work for EVER, it will eventually come back and bite everyone else who was planning on leaving quietly at their normal retirement age.

Air Canada’s Demands
1) Introduce a defined contribution pension for new hires.
2) Change the benefit formula for current members:
• The pension formula would be 1.3% of earnings for all years of
service (the current formula is 1.9% and 1.75% for Air Canada
service and for CAIL members pre-July 2000 service is 1.4%.
• The pension formula would use final average earnings over 60
months (not 36 months)
• The age of unreduced early retirement would be age 60 (not age 55)
• The early retirement with 25 years of service or 80 points (age plus
service) would change to 30 years or 90 points
• The penalty for early retirement, currently about 3.5% per year prior
to age 55, would change to 6% or 7% per year to age 60.
• The joint and survivor pension would be reduced.

I wish I had a more polite word for all of you greedy bastards in favor of working til you die, but honestly I don't ....I said this will happen and all you said to me is that its going to be ok, it's optional and believe it or not will HELP the rest of us (somehow????).

Well, here you go....mark my works, AC will come after ACPA, CUPE, IAMW and all other unions for the same. With their pension deficit why would they want you to retire early or at a normal age anyways?? They want you to work as long as you can, so that when you finally retire you will kick the bucket sooner! They are not stupid, only you are not to see this happening!!

Now PFO with your comments.....because I don't give a damn at all!

[MackTheKnife]

Hey all of you "wanna fly till I die" diehards! I just have a news flash what is happening at CAW negotiations regarding pension plans and what is the cost for creating no age limit retirement, since even there you are allowed to work past 65.

Bottom line is, I said all along, that once you open that can of worms and push to work for EVER, it will eventually come back and bite everyone else who was planning on leaving quietly at their normal retirement age.

Air Canada’s Demands
1) Introduce a defined contribution pension for new hires.
2) Change the benefit formula for current members:
• The pension formula would be 1.3% of earnings for all years of
service (the current formula is 1.9% and 1.75% for Air Canada
service and for CAIL members pre-July 2000 service is 1.4%.
• The pension formula would use final average earnings over 60
months (not 36 months)
• The age of unreduced early retirement would be age 60 (not age 55)
• The early retirement with 25 years of service or 80 points (age plus
service) would change to 30 years or 90 points
• The penalty for early retirement, currently about 3.5% per year prior
to age 55, would change to 6% or 7% per year to age 60.
• The joint and survivor pension would be reduced.

I wish I had a more polite word for all of you greedy bastards in favor of working til you die, but honestly I don't ....I said this will happen and all you said to me is that its going to be ok, it's optional and believe it or not will HELP the rest of us (somehow????).

Well, here you go....mark my works, AC will come after ACPA, CUPE, IAMW and all other unions for the same. With their pension deficit why would they want you to retire early or at a normal age anyways?? They want you to work as long as you can, so that when you finally retire you will kick the bucket sooner! They are not stupid, only you are not to see this happening!!

Now PFO with your comments.....because I don't give a damn at all!

So, let me get this straight. In your black & white myopic world you think these demands from AC and EVERY OTHER CORPORATION thats has to support future DB contributions are because of the Fly Past 60 group and have absolutely nothing to do with the financial position sink hole they find themselves in ???????

FGS man. think twice before hitting the send button next time. Your IQ is showing.

[Mig29]

Really????

How much HARDER would it be for AC to be able to use their "financial situation" excuse if people stuck by the HARD retirement age plan instead of going on a tantrum and fighting the human rights courts and every one in the way to get this flypastFOREVER deal with the company??? Can your IQ tell me that?? That could have been used as a last resort bargaining tool, instead you just gave them this on the plate, and now they are redrawing the pension and retirement rules for EVERYONE else. Like I said, these guys are clever and are very good at what they do, why would they let you get away with a pension at 55 or 60 and let you enjoy your retirement when they can use your low IQ and make you work more with hopes that you die just after your retire! It's simple math man, think about it!

Or are you going to tell me to believe that this financial BS that AC and news media feeds you for the last ten years is true??!?? Hahah While every one of their former and current CEO is ripping off employees with ridiculous bonuses, pay raises, severance and share options packages, and having to enjoy their DB pension plans of excess of 300K/year for LIFE!!

And not one of this guys is going to work even close to 60 years but you!!

Keep living in denial!

Ps. Why even bother replying to your comment....as I said, I don't care anymore, it's going to happen whether you like it or not!

[MackTheKnife]

Really????



Or are you going to tell me to believe that this financial BS that AC and news media feeds you for the last ten years is true??!??



Keep living in denial!

Wow.....who's in denial ??

I pray the media never comes here. The intellectual level of your comments are embarassing to the profession.

[vic777]

Air Canada’s Demands ...

Of course, we could just ignore AC's demands because, FlyPast60 is coming and there's nothing they can do about it. Except enjoy the vast windfall gains that will come their way.

[vic777]

2) Change the benefit formula for current members:
• The age of unreduced early retirement would be age 60 (not age 55)
• The early retirement with 25 years of service or 80 points (age plus
service) would change to 30 years or 90 points
• The penalty for early retirement, currently about 3.5% per year prior
to age 55, would change to 6% or 7% per year to age 60.

I guess that sorta shows that AC benefits the longer we work and the less time we spend retired. I guess you want to let them enjoy these windfall gains for free and not pass any of the billions saved to the Pilots. ACPA sure dropped the ball on the biggest bargaining chip we will ever see in our lifetime. I guess the ACPA leaders were only looking after themselves.

[Rockie]

Mig29

I don't know why you and others continually overestimate the flypast60 group's influence.

They did not force all the provinces and territories to end mandatory retirement.
They did not force the federal government to end mandatory retirement.
They are not responsible for decades of Air Canada mismanagement.
They are not responsible for the financial position Air Canada is in right now.
They are not responsible for the pension underfunding caused by AC taking a ten year holiday.
They did not create the recession.
They do not control interest rates.

AND:

They are not responsible for the demands Air Canada is making on every employee group's contract.

A little perspective goes a long way.

[Raymond Hall]

Hey all of you "wanna fly till I die" diehards! ... I wish I had a more polite word for all of you greedy bastards in favor of working til you die, but honestly I don't ....Now PFO with your comments.....because I don't give a damn at all!

Well, you've just about summed it all up. I, one of your target "greedy bastards," would love to take credit for what is happening. But in all honesty, I cannot. I would love to be able to say that, yes, it was all "my idea," or even less selfishly, "our idea." But that would be disingenuous indeed. Who am I, but a messenger?

I told you over five years ago that this was coming and that there was nothing that you could do to stop it, and that you should do your best to manage the consequences, but you refused to listen to my message. Now that the consequences of the inevitable are indeed upon you, you choose to lash out at everyone and blame everyone but yourself for your own myopia, deafness and frustration.

Do you honestly, sir, (Captain or First Officer MIG29) believe that the federal government's repeal of the mandatory retirement exemption has anything at all to do with the Fly Past 60 initiative? If so, how could you be so naive? With respect, get some perspective. You chose a job that allows you to fly all over the world and to expand your horizons. Open your eyes. The world is dynamic, not static. Life changes. Anticipate and work with the changes. Adapt. Change the things that need to be changed and accept the things that cannot be changed. We have a serious demographic revolution in the workplace of this country that is moving ahead, with or without you.

Do me a favour. Call your Member of Parliament. Register your disgust with him or her. And spare your peers the wrath of your slander.

[Understated]

Well, here you go....mark my works...

?