Encore WACON released and surprise, it sucks

[Lateralus]

God if only pilots could be CEOS.........Merry Christmas Fellas

[flyer 1492]

So, if flow is set at 100% then WJE will endue huge training costs which will drive up the costs. If as Bede points out that the flow thru will be 1 to 4, then a pilot could be waiting a long long time to make any decent money. Not to mention working his/her tail off each and every month.

I have heard rumors that WJ would like to get rid of the -600"s...any truth to this?

Flyer

[onetreehill]

Yes that's true. WJ will be sending one a month or every other month back starting in July. We will be wet leasing the replacements from Croatia, as well as the pilots. Good news is our flight attendants will be working the back providing the world class service we continually win awards for.

[Tiny Tyke]

My personal opinion as a 12 year canadian pilot working 703/704/705 is that there is no need to change the CARs for 705 operators. Most 705 if not all are unionized with working standards better than the current CARs.703/704 is where we build are bitterness/pay our dues from. Those are the regs that should change.

Not being able to do a two leg South America/Caribbean turn is going to really hurt a lot of 705 operators. (No more 14 hour duty days.) I really feel that the 705(heavy metal) CARs for canadian pilots should be as "competitive" as possible. It gives us room to manoeuvre as pilots. We will/already are competing with foreigners.

Also, I think there should be hybrid regulations for charter jet pilots that work 10 days/month, but have 2-3 heavy days back to back where they need to get the job done. 706?

2 cents.

Ps - As they say in Sesame Street - "These two things are not like the other!"

[YWGGuy]

Yes that's true. WJ will be sending one a month or every other month back starting in July. We will be wet leasing the replacements from Croatia, as well as the pilots. Good news is our flight attendants will be working the back providing the world class service we continually win awards for.

Its 4 AM and I just got back from a pairing. Please tell me this is a joke if I can't read the sarcasm. You are giving up more flying on top of the 757 stuff?

[Legacy]

Yes he was just kidding

[True North]

You are giving up more flying on top of the 757 stuff?

You're not suggesting WJ gave up flying for the 757 are you?

[mbav8r]

You're not suggesting WJ gave up flying for the 757 are you

I know they've been using the wet lease for so long it's hard to remember back when but they used to fly that route with the 737, so it's not really a suggestion, it's more like a fact.

[Realitychex]

What makes you think WJ share is at its peak?

[True North]

You're not suggesting WJ gave up flying for the 757 are you

I know they've been using the wet lease for so long it's hard to remember back when but they used to fly that route with the 737, so it's not really a suggestion, it's more like a fact.

It has been pointed out repeatedly, WJ actually increased block hours on their fleet by leasing the 757 to do the Alberta/Hawaii flying. So the suggestion they gave up flying is just that, a suggestion and an erroneous one at that.

[anonymity]

Bede wrote;

I just responded to an email from a friend of mine about Encore pay. Here's my response:

Assuming 80hrs of flying per month. $68/hr * 80 * 12 months = $65280/yr
Profit share averages about 1 extra pay cheque every 6 months (that's about what it's been for me at WJ) $5000
ESP 10% of $65280 = $6500
TOTAL YEARLY COMPENSATION $76780
Of course there is no pension as there is at Jazz. I don't think there will be much left of the Jazz pension come 2020 when SR will get most of the AC flying. I think a Jazz pilot who got hired 20 years ago will do better than a WJE pilot now, but I think a WJE new hire will do better than a Jazz new hire.

1st year Jazz captain $78/hr *80hr/mo *12 mo/yr = $74880
Jazz does have 6% stock matching at 33% ($~1400) plus Ensemble bonuses (~$1000/yr).
TOTAL ~$77000
Porter $77749/yr http://..com/?page_id=440 <-- good on Porter guys

Pay is all similar, except for the generous pension at Jazz which probably won't be around in 30 years when I retire

So here's the problem, it might make sense for a junior FO to make the move because of the uncertainty of Jazz's future but you could make an arguement for the uncertainty of Encore as well, there are no guarantees except death and taxes.
Some of your numbers are outdated and using Jazz year 1-4 Captain pay is not really a fair comparison, there will likely never be a scenario where there is any 1-4 year pilots in the left seat and I'm sure that was contemplated when those wages were agreed upon. Even if they offered to buy out 200 senior positions, you might see a 4 year captain but I digress.
Also the stock matching last year was 100% of 6% and this year it's 60%, next year, who knows.
Those numbers aside, here's my numbers as a 6 year FO;
61.68/hr with next to nothing for overtime, my last paycheque of 2012 has YTD of 66,000 gross
company put 8600.00 into my pension and paid about 7200.00 for my benefits which are top notch.
so far 81800.00, per diems and my bank counts this as income, averaged out 1000/mth so 12,000 net per year or about 16,000 gross. So we are at 97,800.00 as an FO and had I done the ESOP,
add 2400, so I would have cracked the 100g mark as a 6 year FO. Holy crap I think the target on my back just got bigger.
So the above Encore Captain pay, what wasn't talked about and should be is, I believe the benefits are paid by the employee so you can subtract that and no one knows what the per diems will be, but if you base it on WJ and subtract for the lower Encore standards, I would guesstimate, 400/mth.
Clearly a significant paycut for me as an FO and no incentive to make the move. Now, after the effects ripple through, between Encore and SR, who knows what I'll be left with, quite the conondrum, what to do, what to do? Maybe back to school and get a MBA, seems to be the only ones getting ahead in this forsaken industry....

[7thirtyseven]

Good post anonymity.

[WJ200]

Per Diems are the same at each company. As far as the comparison of Jazz salary, you will see a cost control pressure being put on your pilot group as Encore gains traction. This is the new normal and it will have to be rationalized if Jazz is to survive over the long term. I know many at Jazz are hoping that things will last only to 2020 so they may retire. There is no long term vision to protect those that are junior now or those to come in the future. Speaking to those at Jazz, their only concern is viability over the short term, not the long term health of the company. Unless. There is a sea change at Jazz, I fear that it is doomed to fail. This is the reality. It won't be Encore that brings your WAWCON down, it will be the inability to have a challenging conversations to the new realities.

As far as the inevitability of Encore being a threat to WJ mainline, WJ has always defied inevitabilities. What everyone is not seeing is the integration and representation that is going on behind the scenes to prevent whipsawing and the historical challenges that these relationships have had in the past. Doomed to fail will be avoided like it always has, through collaboration and relationship building.

[RustyDeuce]

Many of you pilots would make horrible CEO's with your pie-in-the-sky vision of where the industry is going (hint: it's not going up). You can either get onboard or be left behind. Encore is going to give many an opportunity to secure a long-term career if you can see beyond tomorrow. Encore is not going to be the richest paying Q400 job in Canada from Day 1. It's not. Get over it. Will it be long-term? Maybe. I don't have a crystal ball. What it will do is provide STABILITY to anyone that wants it. Q400 -> 737 -> 787? Widebody planes are going to be coming before 2020. You want STABILITY? Get a job with the most stable Airline in Canada. Want a career? Get a job with the most stable Airline in Canada.

Or, complain. Stay where you are. Stay away from Encore or WestJet. We'll be just fine, thank you.

[RustyDeuce]

I have heard rumors that WJ would like to get rid of the -600"s...any truth to this?

That rumor has existed for a while now.

The -600's have always been defended as great aircraft for "small markets". Well, with the addition of Q400's, I wonder if it makes sense keeping them for those "small markets"? I believe that we'll get rid of them at some point and replace them with more -700's and -800's (or perhaps 737MAX). The Q will allow us to operate into more markets, smaller markets, and with more frequencies therefore freeing up and/or replacing 737 aircraft for longer domestic flights and/or expanding into US markets and international destinations.

[7thirtyseven]

Many of you pilots would make horrible CEO's with your pie-in-the-sky vision of where the industry is going (hint: it's not going up). You can either get onboard or be left behind. Encore is going to give many an opportunity to secure a long-term career if you can see beyond tomorrow. Encore is not going to be the richest paying Q400 job in Canada from Day 1. It's not. Get over it. Will it be long-term? Maybe. I don't have a crystal ball. What it will do is provide STABILITY to anyone that wants it. Q400 -> 737 -> 787? Widebody planes are going to be coming before 2020. You want STABILITY? Get a job with the most stable Airline in Canada. Want a career? Get a job with the most stable Airline in Canada.

Or, complain. Stay where you are. Stay away from Encore or WestJet. We'll be just fine, thank you.

"STABILITY" is never good for the long term viability of any organization, rather its howbthe organization reacts or learns from volitility.
And a hint back, there are very few thinking pilots in Canada that dont recognize where their careers are headed. We are all just rats clinging to the floatsam of sinking ships. Even the wanabe CEOs that wander around spewing well rehearsed managment lingo are doing their own version of this dance...

[CanadaEH]

With all due respect I think stability is pretty important. Would you rather work for an employer who has a healthy balance sheet with a bright future or one that is perpetually losing money with no clear direction?

[7thirtyseven]

With all due respect I think stability is pretty important. Would you rather work for an employer who has a healthy balance sheet with a bright future or one that is perpetually losing money with no clear direction?

With all due respect stability in this industry is a myth and it is definitly NOT defined by the size of your balance sheet.

[Realitychex]

With all due respect I think stability is pretty important. Would you rather work for an employer who has a healthy balance sheet with a bright future or one that is perpetually losing money with no clear direction?

With all due respect stability in this industry is a myth and it is definitly NOT defined by the size of your balance sheet.

Tell you what.

You take a job at an airline that hasn't generated a cent for it's shareholders and compare your career status in 10 years with someone who took a job with the airline that can count it's losing quarters over the past 16 years on one hand and has seen it's shares rise from $10 in 1999 to $67.00 today.

We'll see who comes out further ahead in the long run.

I know where I'd place my bet.

[7thirtyseven]

With all due respect I think stability is pretty important. Would you rather work for an employer who has a healthy balance sheet with a bright future or one that is perpetually losing money with no clear direction?

With all due respect stability in this industry is a myth and it is definitly NOT defined by the size of your balance sheet.

Tell you what.

You take a job at an airline that hasn't generated a cent for it's shareholders and compare your career status in 10 years with someone who took a job with the airline that can count it's losing quarters over the past 16 years on one hand and has seen it's shares rise from $10 in 1999 to $67.00 today.

We'll see who comes out further ahead in the long run.

I know where I'd place my bet.

Ahhh see, you are confusing stability with generating profits. Two completly different concepts.

[WJ200]

OK....I'll bite. Show me an airline with a consistent record of profitability in Canada over the last 25 years which is not still a secure place to work....I simply don't understand your rationale.....

[M. Essaie]

Not being disingenuous-

I've lived out of Canada for more than twenty years now so I would like to know if 100k a year provides a good living for a small family. The tax tables say that you would be left with a little over 6200 a month after deductions so would I be correct in guessing that it would be fine provided you didn't have a mortgage?

M

[Bede]

Well I guess that depends on your wants. I had a small house and a child making $24k/yr 10 years ago ($~$30k/yr in today's dollars) and felt I was doing OK (granted I was living in Thunder Bay). A household income of $100k in Canada will put you in the top 5% of income earners in this country. If you can't make a go of it with $100k, you may need to adjust your expectations.

[GRK]

Quick question for the Westjet bunch...I see you guys all count profit share as salary, correct? I suppose it must be counted as income as it seem to be a T4 (as in my T4 was this big last year) what happens when you don't get a share? Does your salary shrink? Or does it stay the same and you find another way to sing the company song? in real life profit share should be called a bonus for you...it's an arbitrarily agreed upon amount by a CEO and board of directors...not a salary to be touted as guaranteed income, because when times get tough, that's the first thing you'll lose!
Otherwise it's all good right?
For those who believe it, (and this is at any company) per diems are NOT salary, and I really think you need to realise that. It's not for paying your bills, it's a legal requirement that you receive them if your company does not pay for meals etc while you are away on company business. If they DO pay, no per diems. It's not salary.

[7thirtyseven]

OK....I'll bite. Show me an airline with a consistent record of profitability in Canada over the last 25 years which is not still a secure place to work....I simply don't understand your rationale.....

Yes but it wont be a "stable" place to work, it will be the opposite. Usually the higher the profits the greater degree of riak by both the organization and the employee.
Stability is the death knell for any kind of long term sustainability of an organization/organism. A far more important measure (for a long term career at an airline) is how quickly it can roll with the punches and learn from tge instability it encounters.