College of Pilots.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I have watched this industry do nothing for sixty years.

It would be nice to see something happening with regard to improving the industry before I go to paradise and collect my 72 prizes.

So even though I am no longer working in the industry I splurged and paid less than twenty cents a day to help get this going.

If pilots find it is not working just quit paying your dues and it will collapse.

[xsbank]

When a bus driver gets paid more than a pilot for hauling the same number of people? Notice anything wrong with that?

[cncpc]

Tom, thanks for the info.

I agree that we as a profession need some voice. I'll paraphrase the argument I have made in previous threads. I think that wanting to create a college and essentially taking over licensing and regulation from TC is a stretch. We need a united lobby on behalf of all of us in the profession, which in my mind is an association. Many professions (psychologists, doctors, dentists, among others) have both a college and an association. The college licenses and regulates the profession and the association lobbies on behalf of those in the profession. The college role in our case is taken by TC, unless they decide to hand that off. The role of TC, or a college, in part, or in whole, is to protect the public. The role of an association is to represent the member of a profession.

I don't disagree with much of what the college represents, but I really think we need a Canadian Association of Professional Pilots (CAPP). My two cents.

Well said loopy. Give the "college" idea a "rest" and look into a unified "Association" and you just might get someplace. Pilots are NOT Doctors OR lawyers, but "blue collar" workers.for the most part. They need a "voice" to be sure, but not another "regulator"......TC does a poor enough job of that already, and they're not about to hand over control to a "college" by whatever name you choose to call yourselves.

+1

[Colonel Sanders]

a bus driver gets paid more than a pilot

I think that means that more people want to
be pilots than bus drivers.

Did I get that right?

[cncpc]

I have watched this industry do nothing for sixty years.

It would be nice to see something happening with regard to improving the industry before I go to paradise and collect my 72 prizes. What the...? You mean that's true?

So even though I am no longer working in the industry I splurged and paid less than twenty cents a day to help get this going.

If pilots find it is not working just quit paying your dues and it will collapse.

., that's kind of like setting fire to your house to get rid of rats. If, after 20 minutes, you don't see a whole lot of rats running out the doors, put it out.

Once this gets a foothold, it won't collapse just because somebody doesn't pay their dues. It's intent is that you don't work if you aren't a member. That is sufficient to never join, never give it credibility, never allow anyone to write a blank cheque on your future.

[teacher]

And never try to make things better. Good plan.

[cncpc]

Here I fixed this so it's easier to see.

League of Extraordinary Gentlemen has a nice ring to it.

I might Pay to join that if they give out wallet cards or some sort of I.D.

Sure, but would Snoopy?

[ea306]

As opposed to the: League of Shadows?...lol

[cncpc]

And never try to make things better. Good plan.

How would gathering personal details of pilots' private lives, finances, behaviour outside of their work, "make things better"?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How would gathering personal details of pilots' private lives, finances, behaviour outside of their work, "make things better"?

I have not been asked any of those questions yet.

What I have done is fill out the application form and paid $60.00 on my Visa to be a member.

Now that I am a member it gives me access to information regarding how exactly this new venture is going to be set up.

I really feel that I understand the aviation business and would be able to recognize if I saw something that would be not in the best interest of working pilots.

But the best part is I am doing this because I truly believe the industry can be made better through numbers.........like a group working together.

Another plus is I can not be intimidated to do anything if for no other reason than I have no personal involvement in aviation as a career anymore.

Bottom line is if I truly believe this new venture is headed into another clusterfu.k of empire builders sucking money out of the young ones in aviation you people here on Avcanada will be the first to know.

[Doc]

When your "college" makes concrete plans to:
Prevent companies from pressuring young pilots to "push" limits, weather, duty times, overloads etc.
Prevent or at the very least strongly discourage the practice of taking cash out of pilots pockets to "buy" jobs.
Insure companies pay young pilots a livable wage.
Call me. Till then, there goes a spinning donut......have at it!

[Doc]

When a bus driver gets paid more than a pilot for hauling the same number of people? Notice anything wrong with that?

I don't see how a "college" will make any difference to this simple fact. You don't see an awful lot of bus drivers spending their first year or so on the "floor" before being "awarded" a bus either. Most are probably not bonded either?

[TomM]

When your "college" makes concrete plans to:
Prevent companies from pressuring young pilots to "push" limits, weather, duty times, overloads etc.
Prevent or at the very least strongly discourage the practice of taking cash out of pilots pockets to "buy" jobs.
Insure companies pay young pilots a livable wage.

How about two out of three?

Guess which two?

[cncpc]

When your "college" makes concrete plans to:
Prevent companies from pressuring young pilots to "push" limits, weather, duty times, overloads etc.
Prevent or at the very least strongly discourage the practice of taking cash out of pilots pockets to "buy" jobs.
Insure companies pay young pilots a livable wage.

How about two out of three?

Guess which two?

Hold it now, Tom. Why should anyone have to "guess" what is going on with something which clearly intends to affect their livelihood, apparently whether they like it or not.

You're the leader of this outfit, not some guy running a shell game at a carnival.

We shouldn't have to engage in the forum equivalent of waterboarding to get you to tell us what your agenda is, who is behind it, and where we can hunt them down.

[TomM]

Good point cncpc

The first two that Doc mentions- beginning with "prevent".

Certainly if pilots were found doing those items, that would seem to "push" what is considered professional behaviour and second, if these pilots were being "pushed" by other pilots to do this (ie management pilots), then those pilots would also be outside of professional behaviour.

Those are down the road items that would only work if the college becomes legislated and has the responsibility to have "self-governing" authority.

In the meantime, we intend to educate pilots what is and isn't professional behaviour in the hope that they will see the light themselves. We also intend to create a mentoring network where young pilots will have access to older, wiser pilots who will share their sage advice and say been there, done that, don't do it or here's a way out or just say no, as the case may be.

I've spoken to pilots who have said, "Duh, of course I'd tell them no." Unfortunately some of them didn't have that personal fortitude at the wrong moment. One wound up in court and was the first pilot in Canada to be criminally charged for his actions. That was a sad day for every pro pilot in this country. Some of my colleagues sent him cheques for his legal fund. I'm ashamed to say that I didn't. What I will say is that I am working on this project now for him and all the other pilots that are hanging off the chain link fence wondering when their first flight will be. I hope this never happens again. Never.

That's what keeps me motivated to come into this pit and try to do something productive here.

Don't misinterpret. This isn't about a witch hunt or being heavy handed. In my rose coloured world it's about doing what's right and standing up for it. It's about balance, creating dignity and respect. Nothing more. If we can achieve that, then maybe the third item Doc mentions will follow, because we'll respect ourselves enough not to allow ourselves to be used in that manner.

[Bede]

Fellow pilots,
Now is the chance to stop the alarming trends in our industry. This is the organization that we need to support if we want any semblance of a profession left for the next generation. $60 is peanuts for the difference this can make. If you don't agree join anyways and work from within to make this profession something to be proud of.

Tom,
Thanks for all the hard work you've put in.
-a fellow WJ pilot and proud CPPC member

[cncpc]

Good point cncpc

The first two that Doc mentions- beginning with "prevent".

Certainly if pilots were found doing those items, that would seem to "push" what is considered professional behaviour and second, if these pilots were being "pushed" by other pilots to do this (ie management pilots), then those pilots would also be outside of professional behaviour.

Those are down the road items that would only work if the college becomes legislated and has the responsibility to have "self-governing" authority.

In the meantime, we intend to educate pilots what is and isn't professional behaviour in the hope that they will see the light themselves. We also intend to create a mentoring network where young pilots will have access to older, wiser pilots who will share their sage advice and say been there, done that, don't do it or here's a way out or just say no, as the case may be.

I've spoken to pilots who have said, "Duh, of course I'd tell them no." Unfortunately some of them didn't have that personal fortitude at the wrong moment. One wound up in court and was the first pilot in Canada to be criminally charged for his actions. That was a sad day for every pro pilot in this country. Some of my colleagues sent him cheques for his legal fund. I'm ashamed to say that I didn't. What I will say is that I am working on this project now for him and all the other pilots that are hanging off the chain link fence wondering when their first flight will be. I hope this never happens again. Never.

That's what keeps me motivated to come into this pit and try to do something productive here.

Don't misinterpret. This isn't about a witch hunt or being heavy handed. In my rose coloured world it's about doing what's right and standing up for it. It's about balance, creating dignity and respect. Nothing more. If we can achieve that, then maybe the third item Doc mentions will follow, because we'll respect ourselves enough not to allow ourselves to be used in that manner.

Thank you. You have made plus points.

[Doc]

Fellow pilots,
Now is the chance to stop the alarming trends in our industry. This is the organization that we need to support if we want any semblance of a profession left for the next generation. $60 is peanuts for the difference this can make. If you don't agree join anyways and work from within to make this profession something to be proud of.

Tom,
Thanks for all the hard work you've put in.
-a fellow WJ pilot and proud CPPC member

Okay Bede, this is in NO way a shot at you. Or WJ. I do fear however that the lion's share of memberships in this outfit will be held by airline types, who have absolutely no day to day contact with the "small" guy. Bottom line? You guys have unions, great income (comparatively speaking) secure jobs, pension plans, travel benefits, clean safe working conditions.....you do get where I'm coming from. I've been doing this for probably longer than most of you (except Cat Driver, who knew Orville personally!) and from my time in the trenches, it's just NOT the airline pilots (generally speaking) that need a unified voice in the industry. You guys all have unions for that. It concerns me that you think you have the right (not you personally here, Bede) to tell a Twin Otter driver, or the guy on the 185 what is and is not "professional" behaviour?? Just thinking, that before you address us as "Fellow Pilots" you might want to keep in mind the vast differences between our (the non-airline pilot) day to day lot in life.......and lets not pretend that all pilots needs can be understood by the union protected, already have the rat by the ass set. It's like TomM is trying to "run the show" for the rest of us, from his lofty perch behind his auto throttles and multi-million dollar airplane.

[ajet32]

"Doc"
I don't know you but I am or was one of those airline pilots . I did however come form the bush and understand all to well how the airline types at the "big" operations forget the small operations and the sort of day to day things that go on at that level.
I also have a big problem with a large airline pilot making a good living telling me or anyone else what is appropriate conduct. I mentioned earlier in an post I don't care about the $60.00 but I am concerned about the secrecy and the concept of an "elite" group. That sort of thing really rubs a raw spot.

[Beefitarian]

Here I fixed this so it's easier to see.

League of Extraordinary Gentlemen has a nice ring to it.

I might Pay to join that if they give out wallet cards or some sort of I.D.

Sure, but would Snoopy?

Hmmm, We could ask.

How about The Aviator's Guild?

[teacher]

When your "college" makes concrete plans to:
Prevent companies from pressuring young pilots to "push" limits, weather, duty times, overloads etc.
Prevent or at the very least strongly discourage the practice of taking cash out of pilots pockets to "buy" jobs.
Insure companies pay young pilots a livable wage.
Call me. Till then, there goes a spinning donut......have at it!

Let me get this right. You are saying that until someone dies you won't make an effort to prevent it? You won't try to be an instrument for change but only a follower if all the work is done for you? OK than. Hopefully all those that have and plan on helping our profession out of this s@!t hole will make you proud.

[xsbank]

For those of you who are stuck on the name - are you serious?

Doc, I don't think Westjet has a union.

EVERY little group of aviators think they are God's Gift, they are the best at what they do and form petty much bullet-proof cliques that only admit the new guy because the boss says you have to. What's hard about these groups is that the new guy will emulate the senior guys so if the seniors are somewhat less than "professional" they have set the tone for the entire operation.

Rather than bitching about what the college won't do, the name(!) how about joining it and influencing it? Doc, why don't you run for an executive position? It's certain obvious when you are properly channeled you are very articulate and have had lots to say about safety. It's also obvious, because of the accident repetition cycle, pilots need all the help we can get?

How about the Robert Heath Memorial College of Pilots? JC epitomized the best we could all be and he certainly didn't have auto throttles.

[Beefitarian]

Sorry xs, I'll leave the treehouse. ~snags a doughnut~

[Bede]

Okay Bede, this is in NO way a shot at you. Or WJ. I do fear however that the lion's share of memberships in this outfit will be held by airline types, who have absolutely no day to day contact with the "small" guy. Bottom line? You guys have unions, great income (comparatively speaking) secure jobs, pension plans, travel benefits, clean safe working conditions.....you do get where I'm coming from. I've been doing this for probably longer than most of you (except Cat Driver, who knew Orville personally!) and from my time in the trenches, it's just NOT the airline pilots (generally speaking) that need a unified voice in the industry. You guys all have unions for that. It concerns me that you think you have the right (not you personally here, Bede) to tell a Twin Otter driver, or the guy on the 185 what is and is not "professional" behaviour?? Just thinking, that before you address us as "Fellow Pilots" you might want to keep in mind the vast differences between our (the non-airline pilot) day to day lot in life.......and lets not pretend that all pilots needs can be understood by the union protected, already have the rat by the ass set. It's like TomM is trying to "run the show" for the rest of us, from his lofty perch behind his auto throttles and multi-million dollar airplane.

Doc,

No offense taken. What is the alternative? A College of profession 703? Pilots? Just because airline types are grabbing the bull by the horns to make this happen does not mean it will be only composed of airline types. Why don't some of you 703 guys run for the upcoming board-you would make a great addition (no sarcasm). Everyone in our industry can agree to some basic ethical things - you follow the rules, you work for free, etc. Look at how the Law Society works. Small town lawyers can still run their shops the way they want but there are some basic ethical guidelines to follow.

Despite my lack of offense, I think the way you have characterized Tom is inappropriate. Finally a group comes along, puts in a ton of work to help guys at the bottom of the industry and you accuse him of attempting to "run the show". Do you think he's doing this for his own self interest? If Tom worked overtime on the days he's doing College worked he'd be well into the $300k salary. Instead of enriching himself, he's trying to do something positive for this industry rather than sit on AvCanada and complain constantly.

[Doc]

Ouch Bede, I did say that. I meant the "college", not TomM on his own. I absolutely meant no slight in TomM's direction. Just because I'm not jumping in with both feet in no way diminishes the respect I have for someone who is trying to help this lost sheep of an industry in any way.

xsbank....I know WJ has not union. They don't "need" one. WJ got that part right.