Rouge rosters?

[Counterpoint]

Disco,

From the tasking instructions on page 1, it looks like it's a report from a acpa committee for the MEC of the day.

The date on it clearly shows it's been edited, because the mec chair mentioned on page 1, was retired on the date printed on the report.

It's from the tasking, that we get it's specific goal. The acpa is going to do two more in depth reports. One is an audit, the other a governance consultation.

The SPC report, doesn't appear to be anything other than the reasoning for both the audit and governance consult.

It does raise more than a few questions though.

Again, look at the mec chair quoted and the report date. Does this make sense to you?

[ratherbee]

Disco,

Maybe the MEC wasn't interviewed but it sounds like the SPC was close to the MEC Chair. After all, he sent them in to speak with the Sr VP Ops on how to get back towards TA1. So we had a MEC adopting a losing strategy against the advice of legal, an MEC Chair "back-channelling" his lack of support for NC2, and oblivious to all of this - a veto-wielding President apparently sleeping at the wheel.

Fanblade,

So you see its hard to blame ACPA structure until the incompetence of its elected officials is stripped away. I am very happy to see the new President will push through with the review process and I am sure that Disco and his other cohorts on the MEC have tried hard to stop that from going forward. Afterall, the truth will affect their re-election plans.

RB

[rudder]

Is there any appetite within the AC pilot group (not the leadership - I mean the dues paying non-elected members) for ALPA representation?

Honest question.

[ratherbee]

imo,
Absolutely. However, for many it might just be another emotional over reation to just another problem. The review is the first step to see what can be fixed. ALPA has their problems too although they are a great organization. There are pros and cons of course and maybe that should be discussed.

Thread drift!!

[ratherbee]

Back to the orginal question!

As expected the L767 crews are working full blocks of around 14 days. One would have to look at the TAFB (time away from base) to get an accurate figure. It looks like 4 pairings a month is normal with layovers in ATH, VCE, and EDI ranging from 24 hours to 72 hours. I don't know what the accomodations are like but the Venice Palace Hotel sounds pretty good.

The L319 crews are getting very productive flying with blocks less than 10 days. The monthly block hours are low but minimum pay guarantee is 77:30.

[yycflyguy]

Back to the orginal question!

As expected the L767 crews are working full blocks of around 14 days. One would have to look at the TAFB (time away from base) to get an accurate figure. It looks like 4 pairings a month is normal with layovers in ATH, VCE, and EDI ranging from 24 hours to 72 hours. I don't know what the accomodations are like but the Venice Palace Hotel sounds pretty good.

The L319 crews are getting very productive flying with blocks less than 10 days. The monthly block hours are low but minimum pay guarantee is 77:30.

So have you bid to join the wonderful opportunity that is rouge? Didn't think so.

[lov2fly]

Back to the orginal question!

As expected the L767 crews are working full blocks of around 14 days. One would have to look at the TAFB (time away from base) to get an accurate figure. It looks like 4 pairings a month is normal with layovers in ATH, VCE, and EDI ranging from 24 hours to 72 hours. I don't know what the accomodations are like but the Venice Palace Hotel sounds pretty good.

The L319 crews are getting very productive flying with blocks less than 10 days. The monthly block hours are low but minimum pay guarantee is 77:30.

Do you know if the 319's are doing multi day pairing or if the pairings consists mostly of single days?
Also, on single days do you get perdiems or if they give you a crew meal instead?

Cheers

[Buzz Lightyear]

I'm also interested to know what would be the take home pay of a brand new (year 1) FO at Rouge based on actual monthly credits (not minimum guaranteed). And what are the per-diems like? 200 to $400/month?

If anyone is willing to share the content of their pay slip that would be appreciated.

[DBC]

767 Rouge Pairings get perdiems, and they look the same as mainline. 319 Rouge Pairings currently do not, simply a product of the fact that they are only doing turns and the "food" is provided .

As for the take home pay, be safe and plan for the minimum of 77.5 with no perdiems on the 319 for the next year (in my opinion). They are going from like 4 fins to 16, which is a ton of training and displacements. Your main way of picking up more money is being available to cover someone booking off, since they have no reserve coverage at all.

[yycflyguy]

I'm also interested to know what would be the take home pay of a brand new (year 1) FO at Rouge based on actual monthly credits (not minimum guaranteed). And what are the per-diems like? 200 to $400/month?

If anyone is willing to share the content of their pay slip that would be appreciated.

It's 4 years on flat pay for new hires.

12.03.01 Pilots in their first 4 years of service will receive hourly pay in accordance with the following table:
Hourly Pay 1st Year
$46.94

2nd Year
$51.82

3rd Year
$59.64

4th Year
$67.45

[rudder]

It's 4 years on flat pay for new hires.

12.03.01 Pilots in their first 4 years of service will receive hourly pay in accordance with the following table:
Hourly Pay 1st Year
$46.94

2nd Year
$51.82

3rd Year
$59.64

4th Year
$67.45

Renting your parents basement should be easily affordable

It is a system designed to support 25 year old new-hires. No wife. No kids. No mortgage.

[yycflyguy]

It's 4 years on flat pay for new hires.

12.03.01 Pilots in their first 4 years of service will receive hourly pay in accordance with the following table:
Hourly Pay 1st Year
$46.94

2nd Year
$51.82

3rd Year
$59.64

4th Year
$67.45

Renting your parents basement should be easily affordable

It is a system designed to support 25 year old new-hires. No wife. No kids. No mortgage.

Yup. I hope there is an entire generation that come to get the type rating and split for overseas gigs. Why the hell would anyone stick around for 4 years of flat pay only to be rewarded with a sub par DC pension plan?

[bcflyer]

A type rating with no command time on said type is useless for a overseas contract and you won't be in the left seat at Rouge before your 4 yrs are up. At least not the way things are right now anyway.

[yycflyguy]

A type rating with no command time on said type is useless for a overseas contract and you won't be in the left seat at Rouge before your 4 yrs are up. At least not the way things are right now anyway.

Totally incorrect. Check the overseas contracts through various agencies and you will see several opportunities for FOs in SE Asia and the Middle East. They all pay significantly better than AC new hire flat pay. Even more opportunity if a guy has his JAA and work right to Europe.

[Rumors]

It's 4 years on flat pay for new hires.

12.03.01 Pilots in their first 4 years of service will receive hourly pay in accordance with the following table:
Hourly Pay 1st Year
$46.94

2nd Year
$51.82

3rd Year
$59.64

4th Year
$67.45

Renting your parents basement should be easily affordable

It is a system designed to support 25 year old new-hires. No wife. No kids. No mortgage.

I disagree. It does suck to take the hit initially. But we have all taken 2 steps back to move 4 steps forward. Even a 20 to 25 year total career at Air Canada will have you flying some of the best equipment and receiving the best compensation of any other company in the country.

You will still see older pilots with families taking the hit to go to Air Canada.

[rudder]

I disagree. It does suck to take the hit initially. But we have all taken 2 steps back to move 4 steps forward. Even a 20 to 25 year total career at Air Canada will have you flying some of the best equipment and receiving the best compensation of any other company in the country.

You will still see older pilots with families taking the hit to go to Air Canada.

Ok. Here is one for you....

Estimate how many years of service for a 2013 new-hire to reach a T4 of $100K.

All carriers please not just AC.

Fire away....

[DH772]

Totally incorrect. Check the overseas contracts through various agencies and you will see several opportunities for FOs in SE Asia and the Middle East. They all pay significantly better than AC new hire flat pay. Even more opportunity if a guy has his JAA and work right to Europe.

I'm sure with your experience and type ratings you'd be able to get direct entry captain position overseas as well. And I can promise you, as you know, you'll make way more than if you stay at AC for your career. So why aren't you going then as well? Why are you stating there are far better opportunities for pilots looking at AC?

Well it's probably the same reason why you aren't going. One wants to stay in Canada with their family. Making best of what we have AC is still one of the best options and few options we have here in Canada for that type of flying.

[Rumors]

I disagree. It does suck to take the hit initially. But we have all taken 2 steps back to move 4 steps forward. Even a 20 to 25 year total career at Air Canada will have you flying some of the best equipment and receiving the best compensation of any other company in the country.

You will still see older pilots with families taking the hit to go to Air Canada.

Ok. Here is one for you....

Estimate how many years of service for a 2013 new-hire to reach a T4 of $100K.

All carriers please not just AC.

Fire away....

By answering your question are you hoping to rebuttal my statement?

[rudder]

By answering your question are you hoping to rebuttal my statement?

Nope.

Just trying to gather factual information to determine if what you are suggesting is in fact accurate. You ignore the reality that we need to feed, clothe, and shelter our families while waiting for that big payday that you guarantee will come.

I would suggest that at the "new AC" a new-hire could reasonably expect to work a decade before seeing a six figure T4. Is there anybody that can demonstrate that it will be otherwise? And are there better airline career alternatives?

[Rumors]

The only thing I said is that I believe older pilots with families will continue to take pay cuts to come to Air Canada because as of right now its still one of the highest paying best airline opportunity jobs in the country.

Theres alot of people feeding, clothing families in Canada with far less compensation then a first year Air Canada FO.

We live within our means right?

[yycflyguy]

The only thing I said is that I believe older pilots with families will continue to take pay cuts to come to Air Canada because as of right now its still one of the highest paying best airline opportunity jobs in the country.

Theres alot of people feeding, clothing families in Canada with far less compensation then a first year Air Canada FO.

We live within our means right?

This mentality has to stop.

How many other technical trades require $60k + for licencing and 5 years practical experience just to get a job interview for a position that pays less than a city garbage man? Nobody in this industry values their skill set and are willing to perpetuate the backward slide of WAWCON instead of fighting back. Even a beaten dog gets the occasional bone.

[yycflyguy]

Totally incorrect. Check the overseas contracts through various agencies and you will see several opportunities for FOs in SE Asia and the Middle East. They all pay significantly better than AC new hire flat pay. Even more opportunity if a guy has his JAA and work right to Europe.

I'm sure with your experience and type ratings you'd be able to get direct entry captain position overseas as well. And I can promise you, as you know, you'll make way more than if you stay at AC for your career. So why aren't you going then as well? Why are you stating there are far better opportunities for pilots looking at AC?

Well it's probably the same reason why you aren't going. One wants to stay in Canada with their family. Making best of what we have AC is still one of the best options and few options we have here in Canada for that type of flying.

We were debating the conditions of new hires. They come here and face 4 years of flat pay followed by drastically reduced formula pay rates and a stagnated progression due to the elimination of the age 60 retirement. With LCC it will be beneficial for some to get their 500 hours pic and bugger off for overseas contracts. There are many opportunities for FOs with time on type to get overseas contracts as FOs or as FOs with upgrade potential. Those same indentured new hires have a DC plan which does not entice anyone to stick around.

As for me. I can tell you, I won't be retiring from AC.... But this ain't about me.

[rudder]

We live within our means right?

YUL/YYZ/YVR - what exactly do you think that the cost of "living within our means" equates to?

As another poster stated, the time and expense that it takes to get to the bottom rung of the career ladder is increasing exponentially. And the type of money that is being offered is attracting less qualified applicants on many properties, not just AC. If this trend continues, there will come a day when airlines want to expand but there will be no eager pilots waiting in line to join up. That day is not far off.

[Fanblade]

Theres alot of people feeding, clothing families in Canada with far less compensation then a first year Air Canada FO.

We live within our means right?

How about a reality check. The old flat salary paid 80hrs gauanteed.

51.58/hour is first year salary now. There is no longer a minimum guarantee on flat salary. EMJ FO's have been getting blocks in the 60 hour range for almost two years now. It was just starting to get better then retirements stopped and AC transferred 15 175's. My per annum pay dropped after FOS and as of yet has not recovered.

62 * 51.58= $3197/month.

When I got hired I thought I was being offered a full time job and planned accoringly. I had no idea the job was part time. Of course this is part of the companies strategy. If you remember CR leaked an internal memo in Q2. He was encouraging departments to use under time as a method to save money.

There is no AVO to pick up. For the longest time AC was refusing new hires the ability to fly elsewhere. The 320 is the next to face very low MMG's with the transfer of 319's to Rouge.

I have to many responsibilities to have accepted part time work. Like I said. No one told me this job wasn't full time.

[Rumors]

My comment was...

I still believe pilots will take a pay cut to come to Air Canada.

You will still be able to enjoy a career as one of the highest compensated best working condition airline jobs in the country.

I'm sorry you are not getting your full time hours Fanblade it does suck. But i can guarentee you airlines perfer to have 100 pilots flying 80 hours a month as opposed to 200 pilots flying 40 hours a month.

Your blocking average will eventually go up.

Rudder

As for the cost of living. Thats different for everyone. There are some people who earn over 100k a year and cant save a dime. While others who earn half of that live within there means and are happy with that. Its different for everyone.

Like you said it will be harder for people to take the hit to make the move to Air Canada but there will still be many who do.

At the end of the day we are all having to work harder for the same pay. Whether its cause of capatalism/globalization who knows. But everyones taking a hit.

By everyone I mean the worker bees.

One thing is for sure though. The top execs will continue to be compensated ridiculously well.