Ice Pilots Season 5 discussion...

[godsrcrazy]

No Frozen ..... I'm not obtuse.

ob·tuse ( b-t s , -ty s , b-). adj. ob·tus·er, ob·tus·est. 1. a. Lacking quickness of perception or intellect. b. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity

In this example under discussion, the guy was at Buffalo since day one of his flying career, and like many people at companies all over the place had filed resumes with other operators trying to get on with a different level of professionalism or equipment, or better schedule, or location or any one of a hundred other reasons. As I understand it, there had been no responses.

He was offered what some may see as an upgrade to fly the '46 (I'd just see it as more cargo to load at minus 50 with zero support equipment.) So thinking that he was going to be at Buffalo for another who knows how long because there was no movement in the industry he accepts the upgrade .... presumably with no sense of guilt nor intent to deceive (despite Joe's on-camera act indicating the contrary)...... and rightfully so, he does the company training.

For discussion sake, should he have said to Buffalo ....."Oh, no thanks for the offer of the new airplane training, I've been hoping to go somewhere else sometime .... there's nothing on the go anywhere at the moment at any other company, but I just don't see Buffalo as the place where I want to be when I'm 63 and wondering what's going to happen to me when Joe fires me for the 97th time and I end up eating cat food and three day old bread from the dumpster behind the bakery, so therefore give the C-46 checkout to somebody else."

That response would have him next in line to be given every single crappy job that exists at Buffalo (and I'm sure there are many of those,) and he'd be fired not long after because "He's got a bad attitude."

So, then out of the blue and unexpectedly .... along comes First Air and offers him a 737 course, better schedule (or at least some kind of schedule at all instead of the expectation of 24/7 loyalty if the phone rings,) and more money. Do you actually expect him to say "No thanks" to that kind of opportunity? .... "No Mr First Air Chief Pilot, they spent 7.5 hours checking me out on a 70 year old airplane, and I owe it to them to stay even though they fire a guy every 14 days and then rehire him a week later as a matter of course .... maybe give me a call in a year or two if you are looking for 737 pilots again."

This isn't a lateral move like a jump from Single Otter in Uranium City to Single Otter in Hay River job...... it's more like a once in a lifetime chance to escape a life of aviation servitude aboard the aircraft equivalent of a clapped out slave ship plying the Atlantic in the 1700's. (Attempt at inducing a laugh intentional.)

We could go back and forth if Gord should have left Buffalo after taking the C-46 upgrade after working there all them years. He took the upgrade and jumped ship. So OK he went to First air. Took a $30,000.00 plus upgrade on a 737 and jumped ship not long after his line indoctrination 3 or less months. Now everyone else in the industry are getting Return service agreements and Training bonds stuffed up their A$$ because of people like this. My suggestion would be for every person on this site that fly's on West jet and hears Gord name on the PA. Go to the front shake Gord hand and thank him for getting these return service agreements and bonds shoved up your A$$. Karma is a bitch.

[frozen solid]

Sorry Single Swine Herder, I didn't mean to insult you. Your definition of "obtuse" is correct, but being "deliberately obtuse" is different. It's a conversational tactic whereby someone (who is not legitimately obtuse) pretends that they don't get the point the other person was trying to make in order to avoid having to dignify their point of view by responding to it appropriately. It's a totally legitimate conversational tactic; I use it all the time myself. Please don't take offense.

I see your point with the C-46 part, but how about the part where he then baled on First Air and wound up at West Jet? That's more like the example of the Otter I offered. I don't watch the show and I don't particularly care about whoever it is we're talking about, and FURTHERMORE I think First Air kinda deserves to get run out on, morally it's the same kind of faithless move as laying pilots off when the work slows down and expecting them to come back when things pick up. (I have a bad attitude I guess, but anyone who expects "loyalty" when they reserve the right to kick me to the curb when their executives can't find work is living in a dream land) However, I think the point was made that the reason we have to sign an agreement to stay at a new company for a certain amount of time after having received training there is because it costs companies a lot of money when we don't.

[single_swine_herder]

We could go back and forth if Gord should have left Buffalo after taking the C-46 upgrade after working there all them years. He took the upgrade and jumped ship.....

Despite my joking comparison to Buffalo being the equivalent of a slave ship, that's an oversimplification I think Gods ..... so I guess you'd stay at Buffalo instead of going to a 737?

Well more power to you I guess .... that's a way to maybe get trapped and end up at what some may call an "entry level operator" for a decade if the business slows down due to a recession and no worthwhile industry advancement takes place.

I'm not aware of the situation at First Air nor timetables of his period of being there, so I won't comment in any detail on that decision except to say that maybe it didn't take long to determine that First Air's "buggy" was not one for him to hitch his horse to for the rest of his life .... and more power to him if that's the case. The career move to Westjet speaks for itself with the way the company has functioned and grown since its earliest days.

On a strictly business decision, he made the right choice.

[godsrcrazy]

We could go back and forth if Gord should have left Buffalo after taking the C-46 upgrade after working there all them years. He took the upgrade and jumped ship.....

Despite my joking comparison to Buffalo being the equivalent of a slave ship, that's an oversimplification I think Gods ..... so I guess you'd stay at Buffalo instead of going to a 737?

Well more power to you I guess .... that's a way to maybe get trapped and end up at what some may call an "entry level operator" for a decade if the business slows down due to a recession and no worthwhile industry advancement takes place.

I'm not aware of the situation at First Air nor timetables of his period of being there, so I won't comment in any detail on that decision except to say that maybe it didn't take long to determine that First Air's "buggy" was not one for him to hitch his horse to for the rest of his life .... and more power to him if that's the case. The career move to Westjet speaks for itself with the way the company has functioned and grown since its earliest days.

On a strictly business decision, he made the right choice.

I Never said i would stay at Buffalo. I know if i was busy sending resumes and doing interviews with other companies i would have declined the C-46 endorsement. I may of had to come up with some bullshit why i won't upgrade. I am sure Gord did at least 1 interview prior to the upgrade. Regardless he did work there a considerable time working under tuff conditions and i am sure on more then 1 occasion he either witnessed or was verbally abused by Joe. So in his mind he probably felt he deserved the upgrade. i personally am willing to say he did what he did at Buffalo.

Now going to First air and bolting is absolutely BS. You can come up with all the excuses you want about the First air BUGGY. The fact is this clown went there took a 737 course then jumped ship within months for greener pastures. I am willing to bet if he didn't get a job at West jet he would still be on the First air BUGGY.

I can't believe you want to defend his actions. The last thing i have to say about this is Thank you Gord for proving every company right that demands return service agreements, Bonds and prepaid training. Shame on you West Jet for hiring this guy after he took the initial 737 training on someone else's dime. No wonder you are a discount airline.

[Beefitarian]

Aight, I'll hang my yella, tan and white undies in this line.

Depending on your preference. Air Canada and West Jet are Chocolate and Vanilla in Canada currently.

These are the very pinnacle of flying jobs at least for a couple more years. I understand you need to try not to leave an employer without letting them recoup their training investment, but who are you working for?

I admire you if you can do it godsrcrazy. I can't promise you I would be able to.

I can't say whether or not I would have taken the First Air job, without wanting to stay at least a few years, but if I wanted Teal bad enough I probably would have had to leave for them.

[godsrcrazy]

Aight, I'll hang my yella, tan and white undies in this line.

Depending on your preference. Air Canada and West Jet are Chocolate and Vanilla in Canada currently.

These are the very pinnacle of flying jobs at least for a couple more years. I understand you need to try not to leave an employer without letting them recoup their training investment, but who are you working for?

I admire you if you can do it godsrcrazy. I can't promise you I would be able to.

I can't say whether or not I would have taken the First Air job, without wanting to stay at least a few years, but if I wanted Teal bad enough I probably would have had to leave for them.

Were I work has nothing to do with this. What i will say is I have never put a resume in at either Air Canada or WestJet. I enjoy what I do and get treated well doing it. That could be because my word is gold and i don't need a Union or association to look speak for me. Now the Big question for you Beefitarian. If you took the Job at First air would you leave there within a month or 2 for WestJet after after First air just spent $30,000.00 plus on initial training. Keep in mind he just burnt Buffalo. In my opinion I wouldn't trust this guy with my bicycle. All you flying with this guy watch your back he isn't afraid to screw people over. He obviously has no morals.

I keep saying it and will for the last time on this topic. Thank you Gord and people like you for proving why more and more companies are insisting on Bonds and return service agreements. I have said enough on this all topic and will say no more.

[Beefitarian]

Where you work has plenty to do with it. If a company treats you good you're happy and far less likely to leave. Like you said, "I have never put a resume in at either..."

I have worked for a few smaller contractors where you get to be rewarded or penalized predominately via your own merits. I have also been employed by big enough places that you need protection from the worms trying to backstab you. The cream rises to the top but so does the scum. The money was good even if the job was not my favorite. Sometimes the jobs were great. In the end even the worms and scum moved on. Construction with thousands of guys is not forever.

Now the Big question for you Beefitarian. If you took the Job at First air would you leave there within a month or 2 for WestJet after after First air just spent $30,000.00 plus on initial training.

I can't say whether or not I would have taken the First Air job to begin with without wanting to stay at least a few years, but if I wanted Teal bad enough I probably would have had to leave for them.

I have always made sure my current employer was completely happy with my departure, especially if I have to move on for an increase (sometimes substantial) in pay. In fact two I did that to liked me enough to re-hire me several times afterwards. I am going to guess I did them no harm.

Thing is there are lots of flavours that a person might like better than the regular ones.
Sure the main two flavours are good but... Currently I like rum & raisin myself.

If I get involved in commercial aviation as a Pilot the likely hood of me needing or even having the opportunity to leave for greener pastures is pretty slim. Just in case though. How long do I need to stay after a type rating?

[Iliopolus_1]

First Air,
I recall getting a phone call from the chief pilot of First Air
to start ground school the next week that required I give
short notice to a non-flying job. That employer promptly screwed
me out of a final paycheck.

While I passed the ground school, First Air at that time decided
cancel a load of flights and those on the ground school were let go
without pay.

AFTER starting the ground school, at least some of us were told
well, we are not going to pay you, unless we finish ground school,
and we may or may not offer flight training.

It turned out that they just wanted to fill the ground school,
and were already planning to cut back before they started ringing
around to fill the ground school.

I went from a good job to one at First Air that never eventuated.

Don't ever believe what you are told on the phone.
Make sure you get it in writing.

After that the name First Air sounded a lot less attractive.

If you ever get a job offer from First Air, make sure you are
going to have a real job and that you are going to get paid.

[co-joe]

Off topic I know, but I can't help it...

But to each a zone...

Back on track, I'll watch season 5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj3SIXtLaAY

[Tacoma]

The episode in Season 3 where Gord left Buffalo for First Air was Dec 2011. This was probably filmed a few months earlier (not sure how many), and he didn't start at WJ until 2013. So that means he spent at least a year after training flying the 737. How many guys have left places like Jazz without even the sticker in the book and move on.

I've heard through the grape vine from people who know him that the whole episode where Joe exploded on him was pure fiction and purely for our entertainment. Apparently Joe was quite happy for him that he was moving on.

So to have spent 6 years at Buffalo working hard and deserving a C-46 ticket, leaving to spend 1.5 years at First Air, to get on at WJ seems pretty average to me.

It's not guys like Gord who are the cause of bonds and agreements in this country.

[co-joe]

I wonder how it would go over i the rampies wore metal spikes on their boots to walk on icy wings. Safety third right?

[whiteguy]

You gotta love how all these "facts" against Gord are based on a 60 min TV show!!

[Adiabatic]

I've heard through the grape vine from people who know him that the whole episode where Joe exploded on him was pure fiction and purely for our entertainment. Apparently Joe was quite happy for him that he was moving on.

So to have spent 6 years at Buffalo working hard and deserving a C-46 ticket, leaving to spend 1.5 years at First Air, to get on at WJ seems pretty average to me.

It's not guys like Gord who are the cause of bonds and agreements in this country.

Gord phoned me about 20 minutes after he got home after his encounter with Joe. He was pretty disturbed, and let me know that Joe said my name as well. That face, and what Joe said was very real, and not fiction! Trust me, I know when he is yelling at me. Omni cut out when Joe asked Gord if he wanted to punch him in the face or not. Gord had an awesome answer that I will leave to your imagination. Gord is a good friend and is doing quite well for himself. I agree moving on is part of aviation. I myself chose to move south for lifestyle reasons. Take care! Oh, and when I quit, Joe told me to not mention ever that I ever worked at Buffalo, and that I was in the same category as Gord. I didn't get paid for 10 months after I left.

[teacher]

Bonds were created to keep pilots at shitty paying jobs, nothing more. If the job was good and the pay was fair or better they wouldn't really be needed.

[shimmydampner]

That's one over simplified and flawed view.

[Donald]

Bonds were created to keep pilots at shitty paying jobs, nothing more. If the job was good and the pay was fair or better they wouldn't really be needed.

Doesn't account for SJS.

[Beefitarian]

Off topic I know, but I can't help it...

But to each a zone...

Back on track, I'll watch season 5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj3SIXtLaAY

I think you might have been going for "Rickyisms" co-jo.

Foul language so don't watch this with your kids at work K?

[frozen solid]

Wait, is this an actual guy we're talking about? I thought the people on this show were actors. Didn't I see that Adam Beach guy on that movie about radiomen in WW2? I didn't realise this "Gord" guy was a real dude. I thought this was a hypothetical conversation.

[railroad]

"deliberately obtuse" I get it now.

[frozen solid]

See? It's fun!

[The Mole]

Its not personal its just business. Take the emotion out of your business dealings, and do whats best for yourself.

[skydivepilot]

Latest episode shows that even a good natured Newfoundlander can't put up with the rampie position in Hay River and the 2700 hour "Aussie Ace" has just about had it too. I can't say I blame either one of them. Mikey can't believe the nerve of the guy wanting a flying position after only being on the ramp in Hay River for 4 months! Hard to believe they don't have a huge stack of resumes to choose from . I still watch for the entertainment value and it makes me appreciate my job even more!

[teacher]

Latest episode shows that even a good natured Newfoundlander can't put up with the rampie position in Hay River and the 2700 hour "Aussie Ace" has just about had it too. I can't say I blame either one of them. Mikey can't believe the nerve of the guy wanting a flying position after only being on the ramp in Hay River for 4 months! Hard to believe they don't have a huge stack of resumes to choose from . I still watch for the entertainment value and it makes me appreciate my job even more!

It's funny how companies like this really don't like when employees stand up for themselves. If only more pilots had the balls to say "no" or make demands for reasonable wages and working conditions and threatening to walk we would be much farther ahead as a profession.

Still a fun show to watch

[skydivepilot]

Agreed. I liked when Joe's son Rod told Joe he might as well let him go as well when he wanted to fire Cory Dodd "for speaking to him like that". I thought Cory handled himself very well and was not disrespectful to Joe, just upset. I respect a person who stands up for what they believe. Ice Pilots is like a man's soap opera I guess and even my wife doesn't mind watching it.

[brownbear]

There is no one looking out for your well being other than yourself. If you have opportunities to grow and continue you need to take them, no matter what.

If you play Mr. Nice Guy or Gal, you will continue to be taken advantage of.

But to get respect you have to do what you said you would do. And set limitations from day one when people try to get you to do things you do not want to do. Once limits are set and you're a man or gal of your words you have earned respect.

There is no easy answer but I refer to my first statement. Look after yourself. Only you are putting the roof over your head and the food on the table.