The F-35 is not dead

[AuxBatOn]

We get it AUX...anyone who questions/comments on the F-35 is a bum, quack, yada yada yada.

I know you want a new toy and towing the company line but Canada doesn't need these jets, especially at this price point which is almost laughable as it stands now.

I hope Trudeau keeps his word and cancels Canada's involvement in the program. I can't imagine a scenario where Canadians will really regret backing out of this purchase, but please connect the dots for me...

I am not towing any line. I want the best bang for our buck that can meet our requirements and budget. I was a defending the Super Hornet about 8-10 years ago, until I got to see what the F-35 was really about. BTW, the F-35 proce point is around $95M now, much cheaper than a Rafale or Typhoon. It should be $85M at peak production

[Rockie]

He is the master behind the clumsiest and most innefficient procurement program. No kidding he is trying to defend it...

You think Kevin Page defended the F35 acquisition program? He's the guy that blew the lid off the Harper government lies in that whole sorry mess which led to them being the first government in commonwealth history to fall for contempt of parliament.

[AuxBatOn]

He created the acquisition program for the government. He is the reason we cannot get anything (JSF or not, inside and outside DND, common to all government agencies) in a timely manner.

He made the rules for capital acquisition in GoC.

[Rockie]

It's not the process, it's political interference and incompetence.

[AuxBatOn]

Right...

[Rockie]

Oh come on, you can't possibly be naive enough to think a flawed capital acquisition process is the reason we haven't chosen the F-35 yet. If you believe that you'll believe politics had nothing to do with the Navy still using Sea Kings.

If a political government ever leaves their grubby fingers off the official process and lets it run its course without interference then you might be able to judge how poor the actual process is, but that certainly hasn't happened in this case.

[Troubleshot]

We get it AUX...anyone who questions/comments on the F-35 is a bum, quack, yada yada yada.

I know you want a new toy and towing the company line but Canada doesn't need these jets, especially at this price point which is almost laughable as it stands now.

I hope Trudeau keeps his word and cancels Canada's involvement in the program. I can't imagine a scenario where Canadians will really regret backing out of this purchase, but please connect the dots for me...

I am not towing any line. I want the best bang for our buck that can meet our requirements and budget. I was a defending the Super Hornet about 8-10 years ago, until I got to see what the F-35 was really about. BTW, the F-35 proce point is around $95M now, much cheaper than a Rafale or Typhoon. It should be $85M at peak production

Look I am not gonna debate the equipment itself, you clearly have a better understanding of the technical side. What I am going to debate is the cost at this point. The $95 million per jet was when the Canadian dollar was almost par with the US dollar. The only way Canada is going to meet any kind of reasonable budget figure is to lower the order number to like 55 jets....maybe less than that. There is the problem isn't it...our dollar. It doesn't matter if it is the F35, Typhoon, etc... we are still gonna take a bath as of today. That exchange rate not only effects acquisition costs but the operation/sustainment costs as well.

It is simply not a good time to buy into a program like the F35, most likely never will be either.

This program can single handedly decimate the Canadian military. A miscalculation at this level will set back the military 20 years, with all depts and divisions having to make cuts and sacrifices to pay for mistakes and lies.

[AuxBatOn]

Like it or not, we will buy something. The bad exchange rate is not limited to the JSF.

[Old fella]

For those who get off on this..............

http://www.parl.gc.ca/PBO-DPB/documents ... ate_EN.pdf

[Troubleshot]

Like it or not, we will buy something. The bad exchange rate is not limited to the JSF.

Yes I mentioned that, just saying it is not a good time given the economic climate to make a purchase to the tune of 10 billion.

[xsbank]

Justin Beaver has pretty much said he's going to do an open bidding process for new jets and the F35 will have to compete. Pretty much toasts this whole debate as all the rules have changed.

[Rockie]

Justin Beaver

That's actually pretty funny...I like it.

[trampbike]

Justin Beaver has pretty much said he's going to do an open bidding process for new jets and the F35 will have to compete. Pretty much toasts this whole debate as all the rules have changed.

I have yet to understand how the F-35 could participate in the competition.
In order to do so, Canada would have to get out of the JSF MoU, so that the F-35 offered through FMS (therefore more expensive) wouldn't have to compete against itself...

[frosti]

Beaver is going to spend another Billion and how many years to come to the same conclusion - the JSF is the best option.

I know you want a new toy and towing the company line but Canada doesn't need these jets, especially at this price point which is almost laughable as it stands now.

You know whats laughable? Spending less on a Super Hornet then once you add on all the pods, etc its going to be more than the F35. Numpties in Canadian media and the general public doesn't know, nor care about this.

Also, Kevin Page is an idiot, he used weight as a metric to calculate a fighter program over 40 years. Moron. How about comparing all the other fighters as well, do the same 40 year evaluation for our current hornet, the Super Hornet, Eurofighter etc. Then you'll quickly see that "40B" for the F35 is cheap compared to the other crap offered right now.

[Rockie]

Also, Kevin Page is an idiot, he used weight as a metric to calculate a fighter program over 40 years. Moron.

Frosti, here are a few points you might like to consider:

1. The Parliamentary Budget Office (PBO) was created by the Harper Conservatives to support their promise of openness and accountability in government when they were running for office. Kevin Page is the first head of that organization but he is hardly a one man department. Kevin Page in fact did not author the F-35 report. Some short time after creating the PBO the Harper Conservatives realized they much prefer secrecy and unaccountability instead, and henceforth treated the PBO, Kevin Page personally, and anybody else providing information not controlled and approved by the PMO as an enemy of the state.

2. The PBO conducted their review of the F-35 costing estimates because they were requested to do so by Members of Parliament whom they report to, and in direct compliance of their mandate.

3. The PBO did not do this in isolation. As detailed on page 2, they contracted an independent and very experienced firm from the UK specializing in cost modelling and estimating military program costs. The cost/kg model they used has been accepted and relied on for many years. It graphically and accurately shows the increase in costs over the years for everything from planes to ships to trucks to bullets. It is a pretty reliable indicator of how future programs will cost out, but the PBO does acknowledge that this program could be an outlier and not fit the 65 year trend that has occurred so far. Only a fool would think that any diversion from the trend would be on the cheap side for the F-35 given its litany of problems, cost overruns, delays, and the fact it's already acknowledged to be the most expensive weapon program in human history.

4. The PBO report was independently peer reviewed by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, the Chair of Defence Management Studies at Queens University, and finally the principal analyst at the US Congressional Budget Office. They all agree with the substance of the report and the methodology.

How about comparing all the other fighters as well, do the same 40 year evaluation for our current hornet, the Super Hornet, Eurofighter etc. Then you'll quickly see that "40B" for the F35 is cheap compared to the other crap offered right now.

Great idea. There is nothing stopping any MP from requesting the PBO evaluate all the other options so why don't you convince your MP to request it? But in the absence of that comparison (which would be part of a real competition) your statement that the F35 is cheap compared to the others is baseless nonsense.

[Old fella]

Well if the Avcanada esteemed military-analyst commentators wish to repudiate the peer –reviewed data as presented by the PBO, that’s all well and good and certainly fair. How about referencing data that is in contradiction of the PBO and the AG, is peer-reviewed and back it up with your curriculum – vitae. Just saying.

[frosti]

You don't say.....,

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/pol ... e27012886/

More from our resident baffon Page:

Former parliamentary budget officer Kevin Page, however, said he believes the Liberals can save more than $1-billion on the acquisition cost alone, estimating this to be more than $30-million per plane. There would be bigger savings in maintenance and operating costs, he predicted, adding that for this to happen, the government would need to pick a fighter that lacks “many of the features of the F-35.”

So he is basically advocating Canada buy the Gripen C/D. Moron.

[Rockie]

So he is basically advocating Canada buy the Gripen C/D. Moron.

That's not what he said, perhaps you should go back and read the article again. Why do you persist in calling a guy possessing extreme competence and decades of experience in what he's talking about a moron when you have zero experience and zero competency to back it up?

[Old fella]

So he is basically advocating Canada buy the Gripen C/D. Moron.

That's not what he said, perhaps you should go back and read the article again. Why do you persist in calling a guy possessing extreme competence and decades of experience in what he's talking about a moron when you have zero experience and zero competency to back it up?

In the Globe article, the Defence Analysts indicated savings, by cancellation of this F-35 acquisition will not be that great. Ok and fair enough, however provide numbers to show what will not be saved and why and how you arrived at your figures. Whatever one says about Page he provided data be it right or wrong. Even in the last paragraph of the Globe article, Page gave a number(billion).

Finally can somebody explain to this old fool what's wrong with trying to save the beleaguered tax payer a few shackles either way.

[Rockie]

The defence analyst you're talking about made three statements Old Fella. They started with the words:

1. I don't think....
2. I don't think....
3. I suspect....

He doesn't have numbers or any actual research to back up his statements. They are unsubstantiated opinions only.

[Old fella]

Rockie
I would say this F-35 acquisition will be shit-canned by Trudeau as I posted earlier, it was one of the items he campaigned on and got a Significant majority government and I doubt there will be any repercussions from the general population , who probably think it is a big waste of scarce dollars. Of course some of the cold-war Reform angry grey hair old white men will rant but they are an insignificant rump. I bet there are those in the higher ranks of DND who question this F-35 project and associated expenditures.

By your leave

[Spokes]

It's not the process, it's political interference and incompetence.

I think its process that is a big part of the problem. It seems to be designed to take so long to make an acquisition, that by the time anything comes (if it even does) it is obsolete. That has been my observation anyway.

[Spokes]

Justin Beaver has pretty much said he's going to do an open bidding process for new jets and the F35 will have to compete. Pretty much toasts this whole debate as all the rules have changed.

Didn't he say that the F-35 will be excluded? I could have that wrong though.

[frosti]

Justin Beaver has pretty much said he's going to do an open bidding process for new jets and the F35 will have to compete. Pretty much toasts this whole debate as all the rules have changed.

Didn't he say that the F-35 will be excluded? I could have that wrong though.

He can't. It's illegal to do so.

[teacher]

Liberal Leader Justin Trudeau said on the weekend that, if elected, his government would not buy the controversial stealth plane. Instead it would hold an open competition for others and select a cheaper alternative. Trudeau said he would then redirect any savings into the Canadian navy, which needs more money for shipbuilding.

Trudeau has suggested he would exclude F-35 manufacturer Lockheed Martin from bidding. But Williams said it is unlikely a government could prohibit a company from bidding in an open competition.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canad ... xpert-says