Buffalo Joe temporary shut down?

[Laner]

Why use an old DC3 for passenger run? How many seats does a DC3 carries anyway?
Wouldnt a Beech 1900 do the job for a fraction of the cost?
Maybe someone needs to tell Joe that jet fuel is less than 1/2 price of avgas these days.

Have you compared the cost of already paid off DC-3's vs the cost of acquiring a BE02? I suspect there is a strong edge to the DC-3.

E

Nitpicking but a BE02 is a King Air 200. The 1900 is a B190.

i really hope you are joking. -__-

[esp803]

Nitpicking but a BE02 is a King Air 200. The 1900 is a B190.

Strange, my King Air 200 Type rating says BE20 in my license.

[MUSKEG]

Don't you just hate it when you're proven wrong and the other guys didn't even have to try hard.

[linecrew]

Nitpicking but a BE02 is a King Air 200. The 1900 is a B190.

Strange, my King Air 200 Type rating says BE20 in my license.

Well from a flight planning perspective according to ICAO DOC 8643 - Aircraft Type Designators, the identifier for the 1900 is B190. It's odd that they would use the wrong ident for a type rating. What do they use for the King Air 200 then?

[Diadem]

BE20, as posted above. TC uses the prefix "B" to refer to Boeing, and "BE" to Beechcraft, so a B190 would be a Boeing 190.

[sarg]

Nitpicking but a BE02 is a King Air 200. The 1900 is a B190.

Strange, my King Air 200 Type rating says BE20 in my license.

Well from a flight planning perspective according to ICAO DOC 8643 - Aircraft Type Designators, the identifier for the 1900 is B190. It's odd that they would use the wrong ident for a type rating. What do they use for the King Air 200 then?

And for the 1900 TC endorse your license BE02.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 7-1396.htm

[linecrew]

And for the 1900 TC endorse your license BE02.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... 7-1396.htm

So depending on the application, we're both right. Happy endings are nice.

<sorry for the thread-jack>

[anofly]

surely there is some news?

[Prodriver]

Maybe Joe is the Trump of the Air! I'm on his side on this one. If TC is chasing him around with the same crap that is in the 604/SMS I wish him luck. Complete waste of time. I already know of 3 Jet guys that have N reg'd there planes.

[jpilot77]

Would they have been better off with CV580s as opposed to the electras and the piston fleet?

[CID]

I'm not surprised this OC was pulled and unfortunately, I'm not all that surprised about the attitude that continues exist from posters in this forum. I am however concerned and disappointed.

Especially those who somehow think that the subject operator just wouldn't be able to afford new airplanes. Does anyone truly think the owners pass the savings on to the passengers?

And if you don't think you can make money with the "burden" of new airplanes, tell Westjet. Or pretty much any airline in the world. Buffalo's business model is stuck in the bush.

[fish4life]

As much as I think newer airplanes are needed a small operator can't justify new airplanes because of utilization. WestJet can fly new planes around because they have an average utilization around 12 hours/ day, it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to run any northern airline with such a high planned utilization with all of the external factors like short legs and many more weather days factored in.

[springlocked]

And what did westjet start up with -- yup -- old equipment.

[complexintentions]

And how many airlines has CID owned/operated vs Joe McBryan, again?

Of course operating costs (maintenance, fuel) of older equipment are high. Of course capital costs of new a/c are high. But guess what, simple accounting can figure out which one works better in a given situation.

It would seem that Buffalo's longevity gives a certain credibility to the utilization of older machines. That equation could and probably will change, sure. But to make blanket statements that new = good, old = bad is just...stupid.

[YBW-Kid]

And how many airlines has CID owned/operated vs Joe McBryan, again?

Of course operating costs (maintenance, fuel) of older equipment are high. Of course capital costs of new a/c are high. But guess what, simple accounting can figure out which one works better in a given situation.

It would seem that Buffalo's longevity gives a certain credibility to the utilization of older machines. That equation could and probably will change, sure. But to make blanket statements that new = good, old = bad is just...stupid.

My take from the TV show was Mr. McBryan has a passion for the old birds. I thinks that's a pretty big piece of the puzzle here. Ever had a old pair of comfortable shoes you just can't throw away?

[CID]

And what did westjet start up with -- yup -- old equipment.

Are you suggesting that Buffalo is a "startup"??

As much as I think newer airplanes are needed a small operator can't justify new airplanes because of utilization. WestJet can fly new planes around because they have an average utilization around 12 hours/ day, it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to run any northern airline with such a high planned utilization with all of the external factors like short legs and many more weather days factored in.

Really? Let's for a second put utilization aside. I can fly from Toronto to Dubai for under $700 return. For that same price, I can take twice as many people on Buffalo, from Yellowknife to Hay river, return. How about that?? Don't you think there is a premium applied to Joe's prices? Do you think his bank account is suffering? His airplanes are antiques and based on the TV show his staff is a level above slave labour.

The logistics of operating aircraft in the north can be immense. So can paying for hangars and heating and fuel. That's why airfares up north are "high". But....if you operate WWII relics that are restricted by weather, are slow as molasses, use more expensive fuel (and more of it), are cold and noisy, and need a LOT of maintenance and parts that are sometimes impossible to get and which may lead to aircraft being grounded for days on end....are you trying to tell me that Joe can't possibly operate with newer aircraft even if it means increasing his prices slightly?

Sorry, this type of thinking is quickly becoming extinct. There are airlines operating in very remote parts of the world in challenging conditions in poor countries that would put Joe's fleet to shame. What sometimes makes it difficult to make a go of it up there are outfits undercutting other operators while offering a (much) inferior service.

And there are plenty of these sorts of forward thinking operators that will pick up any slack that Buffalo leaves.

[CID]

But to make blanket statements that new = good, old = bad is just...stupid.

To take a comment out of context and inject a blanket statement like that is not just stupid, it's short sighted. If you think that a piston powered DC-3 is a good airplane to utilize in ANY airline application anywhere in the world these days, I seriously question your sanity. Do you also suggest using Model Ts as taxis? How about typewriters to print letters? Sorry but when it comes to airline operations today, DC-3-stupid. L1011=stupid. C-46=stupid. And recently, HS748=stupid.

[fish4life]

CID I was saying a northern operator can't make money using new airplanes, I never said he should still use DC-3's. Buying some used ATR's or Dash 8's is probably the way to go where you can still have a modern fleet but you also not paying for brand new equipment. The sad part is with fuel costs so low it only helps the companies who haven't paid to modernize their fleets because they have much lower capital costs. If we saw oil back up over $100/ barrel it would help force companies to modernize or fold.

[tipsails]

CID I was saying a northern operator can't make money using new airplanes, I never said he should still use DC-3's. Buying some used ATR's or Dash 8's is probably the way to go where you can still have a modern fleet but you also not paying for brand new equipment. The sad part is with fuel costs so low it only helps the companies who haven't paid to modernize their fleets because they have much lower capital costs. If we saw oil back up over $100/ barrel it would help force companies to modernize or fold.

You can't tell me that North Star, Wasaya, Bearskin Cargo North, Bravo, Thunder Air, Creebec, PasCan etc. are not making money? Sure maybe some of them are in a bit of a rough spot right now but they didn't get to where they are now by losing money every year.

An operator could easily set up shop in Yellowknife with a few 1900's and 1 or 2 BT67's and take over all of BJoe's flying. It would be a hard slog for the first few years I think it would be feasible.

[Cessna 180]

Does Buffalo even know how many airplanes it owns? It seems like every airport in the west from Red Deer to Yellowknife is littered with their planes. Kilo taxiway at YZF is almost full with old planes, completely unprotected from the elements, just rotting away it seems.

[jspitfire]

But to make blanket statements that new = good, old = bad is just...stupid.

To take a comment out of context and inject a blanket statement like that is not just stupid, it's short sighted. If you think that a piston powered DC-3 is a good airplane to utilize in ANY airline application anywhere in the world these days, I seriously question your sanity. Do you also suggest using Model Ts as taxis? How about typewriters to print letters? Sorry but when it comes to airline operations today, DC-3-stupid. L1011=stupid. C-46=stupid. And recently, HS748=stupid.

An operator could easily set up shop in Yellowknife with a few 1900's and 1 or 2 BT67's and take over all of BJoe's flying. It would be a hard slog for the first few years I think it would be feasible

So continuing down this line of thought, anyone operating a piston Beaver these days is stupid because they haven't upgraded to a DHC2T or something else newer? How can a shiny new turbine engine possibly be the deciding factor on whether one airline vs another makes money. Is the DC3 a top choice? no. But when properly maintained and operated I see no reason why someone shouldn't be allowed to use them.

Buffalo hasn't been shut down because they use old aircraft, it's the way they operate them. Because we don't know specifics yet I'll use an example: an overloaded Dash-8 vs an overloaded DC3 vs an overloaded 1900 or whatever makes no difference, it deserves the same punishment from Transport.

[Eric Janson]

But....if you operate WWII relics that are restricted by weather...

What weather restrictions would that be?

These aircraft can be operated IFR just like any other multi -engine aircraft.

[goingnowherefast]

Temperature. Turbines keep on going when piston guys are facing all kinds of issues, or have just stopped flying.

[co-joe]

As long as Joe sticks with vintage piston pounders he has no competition. As soon as he modernises he's in the ring toe to toe with Tindi and Sunwest and the competition will be fierce. I doubt his business model would survive that competition.

[Eric Janson]

Temperature. Turbines keep on going when piston guys are facing all kinds of issues, or have just stopped flying.

When I flew vintage piston aircraft we didn't have a temperature cut off for flights.