New pay scales

[cjp]

I think the idea is that eventually external hiring on the E2 will end, and a strong internal flow will develop.

Buddy, do you have any idea how many pilots you're going to need for the E2??

No way external hiring will ever end. And the way things are going, there won't be much internal to pull from because no one other than 200hr wonders would take that Q job...

Somewhere in the range of 600-1000 depending on how many tails they accept. It looks like the Dash 8 is certainly going the way of the Navajo, just took 10 years.

[RoAF-Mig21]

If one were a gambling man, Porter could pan out. But if one had a mortgage to pay or family to feed, there are less risky ways to do that.

Like Flair, Lynx, or Jetlines

The average "new business" in Canada and the US fails within 2 years. We'll see. Flair is a bit different beause they've been around a while but have drastically changed their business model. We'll have this discussion in 2025.

[cjp]

This ties into my 3rd point. How successful will they be against Air Canada and Westjet? Timei will tell.

By Porter’s own admission, since their first flight, they have never generated an operating profit. Never.

They have survived on investor capital and real estate transactions. There’s only so much left to use up before things fall apart …. and flying jets will make that happen quicker.

If one were a gambling man, Porter could pan out. But if one had a mortgage to pay or family to feed, there are less risky ways to do that.

Looks like the Deluce family is doing it again in YHU. Another land and development transaction. Between hedging the purchase of E2s with lessors and getting into YHU, I'd say they are doing ok. 16 years so far and counting.

I dunno, tough to really see your view on Porter. It certainly makes me curious as in my current position I, and my colleagues would respectfully disagree. There are obviously issues with large pay discrepancies on the E2 left to right and in comparison to the Q, which have created some questions, but most I've talked to are willing to ride it out and see.

A few are taking advantage of this industry growth and going somewhere they are more excited about, i.e Air Canada. All the power to them.

[braaap Braap]

This ties into my 3rd point. How successful will they be against Air Canada and Westjet? Timei will tell.

By Porter’s own admission, since their first flight, they have never generated an operating profit. Never.

They have survived on investor capital and real estate transactions. There’s only so much left to use up before things fall apart …. and flying jets will make that happen quicker.

If one were a gambling man, Porter could pan out. But if one had a mortgage to pay or family to feed, there are less risky ways to do that.

Do you have a source on that?

[Crewbunk]

Do you have a source on that?

If you recall, Porter owned the passenger terminal at YTZ. That gave them full control of “slots” and other than about a dozen used by Jazz, they had the monopoly. (A very shrewd real estate investment).

They sold the terminal about three years ago for a net profit of about $500M. (Looking like they were burning furniture to heat the house, but that’s just my opinion). However, now they had to pay for their “slots”. This cost them about $50M / year. And more importantly, they had to pay that to retain their near monopoly at YTZ.

When Covid shut down the airline, they stopped paying for those “slots”, claiming non use. A court case ensued, and the judge sided with the new owners that Porter owed over $100M in arrears.

If you look at the documentation of that court case, you will see Porter’s “presentation of hardship” which included their financial results. It’s the first time they publicly acknowledged what many had estimated.

[braaap Braap]

If you recall, Porter owned the passenger terminal at YTZ. That gave them full control of “slots” and other than about a dozen used by Jazz, they had the monopoly. (A very shrewd real estate investment).

They sold the terminal about three years ago for a net profit of about $500M. (Looking like they were burning furniture to heat the house, but that’s just my opinion). However, now they had to pay for their “slots”. This cost them about $50M / year. And more importantly, they had to pay that to retain their near monopoly at YTZ.

When Covid shut down the airline, they stopped paying for those “slots”, claiming non use. A court case ensued, and the judge sided with the new owners that Porter owed over $100M in arrears.

If you look at the documentation of that court case, you will see Porter’s “presentation of hardship” which included their financial results. It’s the first time they publicly acknowledged what many had estimated.

Interesting. Yes I've heard rumblings of all that. Couldn't tell if it was also just lawyer/courtroom games. Do you know where someone can access those court documents?

[Captain101]

Would it make sense for an E2 captain to leave for AC now with the new E2 captain pay scales at Porter? It would be almost a $100k pay cut the first year but is it true that the upgrade times on the narrow body at AC are now roughly 2 years? Also looking at the long term benefits since AC has a pension does anyone know how the pension at AC actually works? Also trying to consider the life time earnings since I have 30 years till I hit 65. My estimate is that life time earnings will be more at AC since there is an opportunity to move to the widebody.

[CaptDukeNukem]

If you recall, Porter owned the passenger terminal at YTZ. That gave them full control of “slots” and other than about a dozen used by Jazz, they had the monopoly. (A very shrewd real estate investment).

They sold the terminal about three years ago for a net profit of about $500M. (Looking like they were burning furniture to heat the house, but that’s just my opinion). However, now they had to pay for their “slots”. This cost them about $50M / year. And more importantly, they had to pay that to retain their near monopoly at YTZ.

When Covid shut down the airline, they stopped paying for those “slots”, claiming non use. A court case ensued, and the judge sided with the new owners that Porter owed over $100M in arrears.

If you look at the documentation of that court case, you will see Porter’s “presentation of hardship” which included their financial results. It’s the first time they publicly acknowledged what many had estimated.

Interesting. Yes I've heard rumblings of all that. Couldn't tell if it was also just lawyer/courtroom games. Do you know where someone can access those court documents?

You can search for court cases on Ontario’s website.
Google “search Ontario Supreme Court cases”
You need to create an account but I’m sure if you’re interested enough it’ll be there.

I did however find this which is an easier read.

https://gowlingwlg.com/en/insights-reso ... ior-court/

[rudder]

Would it make sense for an E2 captain to leave for AC now with the new E2 captain pay scales at Porter? It would be almost a $100k pay cut the first year but is it true that the upgrade times on the narrow body at AC are now roughly 2 years? Also looking at the long term benefits since AC has a pension does anyone know how the pension at AC actually works? Also trying to consider the life time earnings since I have 30 years till I hit 65. My estimate is that life time earnings will be more at AC since there is an opportunity to move to the widebody.

In the not too distant future, upgrade times at AC will return to a more normal timeframe (5+ years). It will all depend where you sit in the nearly 2000 pilot hiring wave which is already 700-800 in.

Pension alone is a good enough reason to go to AC if you are 35 or younger. Might even work at age 40. You will never amass the retirement amount in a matching DC or RRSP account compared to the AC CWIPP.

[Captain101]

As for pension I was reading in the CBA that for example if one is to retire in 2024 the MPU is $4996. If one did 30 years of service would their annual pension be $4996 x 30 = $149,880. Not sure if my understanding of it is correct but just trying to come up to a ball park figure of what my pension could be if I retire after 30 years at AC.

Thanks for any info.

[flyinhigh]

As for pension I was reading in the CBA that for example if one is to retire in 2024 the MPU is $4996. If one did 30 years of service would their annual pension be $4996 x 30 = $149,880. Not sure if my understanding of it is correct but just trying to come up to a ball park figure of what my pension could be if I retire after 30 years at AC.

Thanks for any info.

Pretty sure these questions, I don’t know, belong in the AC form.

[smooth]

At 63K per annum, it’s pretty descent.

I did think the DH8 should have come up though. Folks who were on the fence about transferring over previously will be bailing from the Dash program in a New York minute now, leaving that program severely deprived.

You think $63k for an Embraer FO is decent?

That is concerning...

The guys at AC think 56k is just right for a 777 driver. 63 for a 136k lb plane is relatively better,

i die

[BlackHawkOne]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

[CaptDukeNukem]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

I’m not on the Q but based on 45.77 a credit with a minimum 80 MMG, gross pay would be 3661$ a month. With 35% deductions you’re looking at $1200 ish per check.

Not including per diems, which isn’t epic, but can help.

[CaptDukeNukem]

My apologies, I used the old pay scales in previous calculations.

New fo rate year one is 50.01$

So 4000$ gross per month. Taxed roughly at 35%, without any per diems, $1300 take home per cheque. No OT, or per diems.

[Ozinater]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

Current hourly rate is $50.01. For one paycheck that's $2000 gross. Then there's a $27 dry cleaning allowance and $30 transportation stipend. Less $468 in deductions and that leaves you with $1589 takehome (no per diems included), so $3178 each month.

[kiaszceski]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

Current hourly rate is $50.01. For one paycheck that's $2000 gross. Then there's a $27 dry cleaning allowance and $30 transportation stipend. Less $468 in deductions and that leaves you with $1589 takehome (no per diems included), so $3178 each month.

Well, that's $1000 more than Year 1 at Jazz each month.
How much are the perdiems and what's the average for a block holder?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

Current hourly rate is $50.01. For one paycheck that's $2000 gross. Then there's a $27 dry cleaning allowance and $30 transportation stipend. Less $468 in deductions and that leaves you with $1589 takehome (no per diems included), so $3178 each month.

Well, that's $1000 more than Year 1 at Jazz each month.
How much are the perdiems and what's the average for a block holder?

Per diem rate is 3.60$ per duty hour. Q block holders around the 70-80 mark right now. Min guarantee is 80. Anything after 85 is OT. I believe there’s plenty of OT to be had. Paid at 1.5 on GDOs or VAC regardless of how many credits accrued.

[Ozinater]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

Current hourly rate is $50.01. For one paycheck that's $2000 gross. Then there's a $27 dry cleaning allowance and $30 transportation stipend. Less $468 in deductions and that leaves you with $1589 takehome (no per diems included), so $3178 each month.

Well, that's $1000 more than Year 1 at Jazz each month.
How much are the perdiems and what's the average for a block holder?

$3.60/hour as mentioned above. So far this winter about $700-$900 in perdiems a month. Looking at a few schedules, some coworkers who bid for 3 & 4 day pairings in March are getting around $1000-$1200 in perdiems.

[braaap Braap]

Current hourly rate is $50.01. For one paycheck that's $2000 gross. Then there's a $27 dry cleaning allowance and $30 transportation stipend. Less $468 in deductions and that leaves you with $1589 takehome (no per diems included), so $3178 each month.

Well, that's $1000 more than Year 1 at Jazz each month.
How much are the perdiems and what's the average for a block holder?

Per diem rate is 3.60$ per duty hour. Q block holders around the 70-80 mark right now. Min guarantee is 80. Anything after 85 is OT. I believe there’s plenty of OT to be had. Paid at 1.5 on GDOs or VAC regardless of how many credits accrued.

Small clarification (not trying to nit pick), per diem is $3.60/hour duty + time away from base. I figure the following:

1 day = ~$50
2 day = ~$125
3 day = ~$210
4 day = ~$350

I dont work a lot of multi days and I usually have ~$300-$400 per pay check.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Well, that's $1000 more than Year 1 at Jazz each month.
How much are the perdiems and what's the average for a block holder?

Per diem rate is 3.60$ per duty hour. Q block holders around the 70-80 mark right now. Min guarantee is 80. Anything after 85 is OT. I believe there’s plenty of OT to be had. Paid at 1.5 on GDOs or VAC regardless of how many credits accrued.

Small clarification (not trying to nit pick), per diem is $3.60/hour duty + time away from base. I figure the following:

1 day = ~$50
2 day = ~$125
3 day = ~$210
4 day = ~$350

I dont work a lot of multi days and I usually have ~$300-$400 per pay check.

You’re right. That’s what I meant lol, just typed in incorrectly. Thanks for clarification

[cdnavater]

Porter pilots, some of you are ex Jazz and very vocal about our pay, so here is a breakdown of cost per available seat, not seat mile, just how many seats versus hourly wage.
Porter E2 Top scale

Captain 227.96/132= 1.726
FO 135.71/132=1.028
Jazz top scale(stripped out the 200s which is 10% of the total seats)
Captain 143.50/76= 1.888
FO 89.66/76= 1.179
Porter bottom E2
160.63/132= 1.216
65.10/132= .493
Jazz bottom
96.68/76= 1.272
51.74/76= .68

Porter Q400
Top
124.30/76= 1.635
76.14/76= 1.001
Bottom
91.57/76= 1.204
50.01/76= .658
In all cases Jazz pilots are paid more per seat, obviously stage length will drive those costs down but bare bones, more per seat at Jazz and I excluded the 200s because there are likely leaving sooner than later so not a huge factor in the status pay formula.
You are worth more, maybe instead of comparing to Jazz, have a look at AC 220s, how do you compare to them?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Porter pilots, some of you are ex Jazz and very vocal about our pay, so here is a breakdown of cost per available seat, not seat mile, just how many seats versus hourly wage.
Porter E2 Top scale

Captain 227.96/132= 1.726
FO 135.71/132=1.028
Jazz top scale(stripped out the 200s which is 10% of the total seats)
Captain 143.50/76= 1.888
FO 89.66/76= 1.179
Porter bottom E2
160.63/132= 1.216
65.10/132= .493
Jazz bottom
96.68/76= 1.272
51.74/76= .68

Porter Q400
Top
124.30/76= 1.635
76.14/76= 1.001
Bottom
91.57/76= 1.204
50.01/76= .658

In all cases Jazz pilots are paid more per seat, obviously stage length will drive those costs down but bare bones, more per seat at Jazz and I excluded the 200s because there are likely leaving sooner than later so not a huge factor in the status pay formula.
You are worth more, maybe instead of comparing to Jazz, have a look at AC 220s, how do you compare to them?

Look at your own post dude.

Jazz captain top scale is less than porter year 1 e2 captain pay. You make more per seat… good job. I make more than you and you’re a trainer with 20 years service.

Benchmarking was done using the 220s in the formula. Cut the crap and go to bed, call the MEC and complain. I did, nothing happened, so I went to porter. No, I won’t make as much as a AC 220 captain, and especially their pension, but I ran the numbers, my break even point is too far down the line.

Who cares if you have 78 seats versus 132. It’s mostly the same work. We aren’t talking king air to jet comparison.

[cdnavater]

Porter pilots, some of you are ex Jazz and very vocal about our pay, so here is a breakdown of cost per available seat, not seat mile, just how many seats versus hourly wage.
Porter E2 Top scale

Captain 227.96/132= 1.726
FO 135.71/132=1.028
Jazz top scale(stripped out the 200s which is 10% of the total seats)
Captain 143.50/76= 1.888
FO 89.66/76= 1.179
Porter bottom E2
160.63/132= 1.216
65.10/132= .493
Jazz bottom
96.68/76= 1.272
51.74/76= .68

Porter Q400
Top
124.30/76= 1.635
76.14/76= 1.001
Bottom
91.57/76= 1.204
50.01/76= .658

In all cases Jazz pilots are paid more per seat, obviously stage length will drive those costs down but bare bones, more per seat at Jazz and I excluded the 200s because there are likely leaving sooner than later so not a huge factor in the status pay formula.
You are worth more, maybe instead of comparing to Jazz, have a look at AC 220s, how do you compare to them?

Look at your own post dude.

Jazz captain top scale is less than porter year 1 e2 captain pay. You make more per seat… good job. I make more than you and you’re a trainer with 20 years service.

Benchmarking was done using the 220s in the formula. Cut the crap and go to bed, call the MEC and complain. I did, nothing happened, so I went to porter. No, I won’t make as much as a AC 220 captain, and especially their pension, but I ran the numbers, my break even point is too far down the line.

Who cares if you have 78 seats versus 132. It’s mostly the same work. We aren’t talking king air to jet comparison.

Yes, great business sense, you nearly twice the amount of seats but you’re paid less, I make no bones about it, I chose to be a regional pilot and the lower pay that comes with it, pretty pathetic the best you can respond with is, I make more than you, nahnahnahnahnahnah.
How about we compare same work, not mostly, the Q400 at Porter is quite a bit less, but you don’t care about them do you, you got yours, self entitled prick
I’m sure glad Porter has you, I’m guessing AC didn’t want you, can’t say I blame them!

[8895]

Porter pilots, some of you are ex Jazz and very vocal about our pay, so here is a breakdown of cost per available seat, not seat mile, just how many seats versus hourly wage.
Porter E2 Top scale

Captain 227.96/132= 1.726
FO 135.71/132=1.028
Jazz top scale(stripped out the 200s which is 10% of the total seats)
Captain 143.50/76= 1.888
FO 89.66/76= 1.179
Porter bottom E2
160.63/132= 1.216
65.10/132= .493
Jazz bottom
96.68/76= 1.272
51.74/76= .68

Porter Q400
Top
124.30/76= 1.635
76.14/76= 1.001
Bottom
91.57/76= 1.204
50.01/76= .658

In all cases Jazz pilots are paid more per seat, obviously stage length will drive those costs down but bare bones, more per seat at Jazz and I excluded the 200s because there are likely leaving sooner than later so not a huge factor in the status pay formula.
You are worth more, maybe instead of comparing to Jazz, have a look at AC 220s, how do you compare to them?

Look at your own post dude.

Jazz captain top scale is less than porter year 1 e2 captain pay. You make more per seat… good job. I make more than you and you’re a trainer with 20 years service.

Benchmarking was done using the 220s in the formula. Cut the crap and go to bed, call the MEC and complain. I did, nothing happened, so I went to porter. No, I won’t make as much as a AC 220 captain, and especially their pension, but I ran the numbers, my break even point is too far down the line.

Who cares if you have 78 seats versus 132. It’s mostly the same work. We aren’t talking king air to jet comparison.

Yes, great business sense, you nearly twice the amount of seats but you’re paid less, I make no bones about it, I chose to be a regional pilot and the lower pay that comes with it, pretty pathetic the best you can respond with is, I make more than you, nahnahnahnahnahnah.
How about we compare same work, not mostly, the Q400 at Porter is quite a bit less, but you don’t care about them do you, you got yours, self entitled prick
I’m sure glad Porter has you, I’m guessing AC didn’t want you, can’t say I blame them!

Dude I’ve never seen someone drink the stale koolaid at jazz for so long on here you worried that both AC and porter are killing off jazz or something? Seems like you’re fighting for your long tenured career there with the way you’re posting in the porter forums lol

Porter is by no means perfect, even by Canadian airline standards which is already pathetically low, but stop trying to pump the jazz tires when every single FO I know there is living with their parents or 5 roommates just to make ends somewhat meet. I’m sure someone’s already asked, but if jazz is so much better than porter why is jazz losing on average a pilot a day? From what I’ve heard that stat isn’t even including AC attrition.