The F-35 is not dead

[Old fella]

Advocating two engines simply due to a illusion of "flying up north" shows just how little one knows of the subject. Almost no one understands what the RCAF actually does, and some, even when explained what actually happens, still go on about it. The Canadian public really is stupid on this subject and has no say one way or the other. People will just move on to other reasons they feel the F-35 doesn't work. This upcoming competition really is just another dog and pony show for the Canadian CBC-watching public. This new government is so full of shit on the Superhornet example in their platform, saying that we can get an SH at 80 cents on the dollar which translates to 52 million a pop Canadian. These are all blatant lies. Joe Public dummy Canada who has zero knowledge of fighters will of course eat this up.

The Canadian public has no say- you say. Funny that,but I thought they did loud and clear on October 19th but you figure they are "stupid". Fair enough as that is your view. Remember, nothing you can do about our stupidity over the next few years.

Carry on sir.

[Rockie]

I actually do know what I'm talking about Frosti so here's my take:

The US employs F-16's in Alaska as aggressors whose job is to train front line pilots to fight. They fly primarily back and forth to training areas that are well covered by an extremely capable and well equipped SAR apparatus comprising elements of at least the USAF, USN and USCG. They are not used to fly out to provide airspace protection. Norway and Sweden are postage stamps compared to Canada and are much more densely populated in their north than Canada is, their weather even in the north is less severe and they too have capable, full SAR coverage. There is no comparison.

Flying two engine airplanes in remote areas (ETOPS) is based entirely on proven service time between failures and redundancy of a whole bunch of systems which naturally includes the engines. ETOPS actually assumes an engine failure at the most critical point in a flight and provides procedures to follow when it does. Ejecting isn't one of them. A smart guy like you surely recognizes the complete loss of any redundancy going from two engines to one.

Your last post refers to the "illusion" of flying up north. Are you saying the RCAF doesn't fly up north but only pretends to?

[C-206]

Reading makes Hulk angry. Hulk Smash...

[frosti]

The Canadian public has no say- you say. Funny that,but I thought they did loud and clear on October 19th but you figure they are "stupid". Fair enough as that is your view. Remember, nothing you can do about our stupidity over the next few years.

Carry on sir.

The Canadian public ate up Biebs' promises. I hope the hippie population enjoys their pot.

Your last post refers to the "illusion" of flying up north. Are you saying the RCAF doesn't fly up north but only pretends to?

I know how many hours our fighters spend flying up north on a yearly basis. It's so insignificant that it makes the two vs one engine thing a non issue. Eielson AFB is getting two squadrons of F-35s, the USAF's aren't worried about the single engine "issue". Who am I to argue with the stupid Canadian public, let them keep thinking we are special.

[AuxBatOn]

What the public and by extension, the government should be concerned about is the Defense priorities and how much money they are willing to spend on those priorities and for how long. Tell me what I need to do and how much money I get but let me decide how.

[Rockie]

Your last post refers to the "illusion" of flying up north. Are you saying the RCAF doesn't fly up north but only pretends to?

I know how many hours our fighters spend flying up north on a yearly basis. It's so insignificant that it makes the two vs one engine thing a non issue. Eielson AFB is getting two squadrons of F-35s, the USAF's aren't worried about the single engine "issue". Who am I to argue with the stupid Canadian public, let them keep thinking we are special.

The USAF didn't want them there. In fact those jets are assigned to the pacific theatre - not air defence - and Alaskan politicians forced the USAF to place the jets there for purely political reasons when what the USAF really wanted to do was scale back the base. I can pretty much guarantee those jets will be staying as close to home as the F-16's do.

As far as Canadian northern operations are concerned you might need a reminder of what airspace sovereignty entails. If you can think of a way to defend arctic airspace against encroachment without flying jets up there I suggest you're in the wrong business. You're a bonofide genius.

[Rockie]

Tell me what I need to do and how much money I get but let me decide how.

You know it's not anywhere close to being that simple, nor should it be.

[Old fella]

More info

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/sto ... d=11518886

[frosti]

As far as Canadian northern operations are concerned you might need a reminder of what airspace sovereignty entails. If you can think of a way to defend arctic airspace against encroachment without flying jets up there I suggest you're in the wrong business. You're a bonofide genius.

The Russians aren't scared of a couple leaky 40 year old naval fighters. They sure as hell won't be if we buy a couple dozen Super hornets as air defense units. It's worth noting the New Liberal Government has said "The primary mission of our fighter aircraft should remain the defence of North America, not stealth first-strike capability,” none of the current 4.5 Generations could hope to match the F-35A in that role. Excluding the stealth part, the rest of what the F-35 brings makes it better than the rest. The notion that stealth is for attack only is something that the Harpers never really tried to dissuade. The worst kept secret here is that this will be an "open" and "objective" "competition". It will be interesting to see what we have to say to Lockheed offering the F-35. Will we say "open to all except the F-35" therefore making us hypocrites? Will we make up some metric we could twist to exclude it? "Must have 2 engines for reliability", never mind what real numbers say.

More info

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/sto ... d=11518886

Canada is a joke, the person picked to run the program knows nothing about Fighter Aircraft, BUT! she's got a hyphenated last name and isn't white, and is female. Clearly, she's got so much liberal credentials that's all that matters. Canada's new defence policy: "Listen, you promise me something, OK? Just if you’re ever in trouble, don’t be brave. You just run, OK? Just run away.” Get out of combat now Canada. Wouldn't want anyone in the northern paradise to get hurt fighting the bad men...

[Rockie]

The Russians aren't scared of a couple leaky 40 year old naval fighters.

And you think they'll be scared of the two F-35's we manage to get up there once every six days to cover from Alaska to Greenland to Alert? Give your head a shake man...

Canada is a joke, the person picked to run the program knows nothing about Fighter Aircraft, BUT! she's got a hyphenated last name and isn't white, and is female.

Perhaps you can explain why a government minister in charge needs to have a single last name, needs to be white, needs to be male, and needs to know about fighter aircraft to run their department?

[frosti]

The Russians aren't scared of a couple leaky 40 year old naval fighters.

And you think they'll be scared of the two F-35's we manage to get up there once every six days to cover from Alaska to Greenland to Alert? Give your head a shake man...

Two F-35's will be more of a force than 60 4th gen ++++++ aircraft once the shooting war gets hot. All the Russians have to do is put a few trucks on an ice float and deny our shiny new Super Hornets from ever taking off. 4th Gen planes die in peer force modern combat. The Russians are serious about Arctic presence, once their IADS is set up, we are screwed with old tech.

Canada is a joke, the person picked to run the program knows nothing about Fighter Aircraft, BUT! she's got a hyphenated last name and isn't white, and is female.

Perhaps you can explain why a government minister in charge needs to have a single last name, needs to be white, needs to be male, and needs to know about fighter aircraft to run their department?

How about having someone that wasn't in the god damn FISHERIES department in charge of our national defence fighter procurement. What the hell does she know about fighters. NOTHING. Much like the dumb sheep Canadians. This procurement is a waste of time, money and a laughing stock to our international partners.

[Kitzbuhel]

What's your angle Frosti? I don't think I've seen you make comments anywhere else but in F35 discussions... I don't think anyone in the CAF cares who heads the procurement. That person will be advised by knowledgeable staff from the RCAF, the only thing that matters is that they have an open mind. One might even argue that someone with flying or military background might have prejudice that would stop them from ever making an unbiased decision so the appointment makes even more sense in that regard.

As for the final procurement, all the pilots I know would be happy flying any of the platforms up north and abroad. The only wrong decision would be to delay the CF-18 replacement any longer.

[trampbike]

This procurement is a waste of time, money and a laughing stock to our international partners.

I'm an RCAF jet-pilot, and I've come to the conclusion that reading your posts was an even bigger waste of my time.

[B208]

Tell me what I need to do and how much money I get but let me decide how.

You know it's not anywhere close to being that simple, nor should it be.

You're right that it's not that simple, but it certainly should be.

[B208]

Perhaps you can explain why a government minister in charge needs to have a single last name, needs to be white, needs to be male, and needs to know about fighter aircraft to run their department?

That's a good question. Why don't you ask Justin why he selected his cabinet based primarily on ethnicity and gender? Cultural Marxism at it's finest.

[Rockie]

Perhaps you can explain why a government minister in charge needs to have a single last name, needs to be white, needs to be male, and needs to know about fighter aircraft to run their department?

That's a good question. Why don't you ask Justin why he selected his cabinet based primarily on ethnicity and gender? Cultural Marxism at it's finest.

You prefer the time honoured method of regional representation used by most governments prior to this one? Or how about the mute trained seals Harper installed who only did what the PMO says?

The current cabinet have functional, independent brains that they're actually allowed to use to go along with their resemblance to Canadian society. Everybody including the civil service has an adjustment to make back to how departments are supposed to work after 10 years of Harper's one man rule, how about you wait and see how it works before condemning it?

[tailgunner]

Rockie,
Cabinet members are only allowed to be independent and free thinking under the direction of the PM. It matters not who is the PM. Cretien ran a very strict and regulated cabinet as well.
If I recall correctly, JT stated that no Liberal candidate that did not fall into line with his Views on abortion, would not get official party backing.....some independence and free thought.

But, back to the F35....
The F35 will have integrated sensors/electronics that will allow it to download and use ANY radar/intelligence. So, an F35 will be able to use the radar picture gathered from the huge over the horizon radars currently employed by NORAD. Theycould also use the radar picture generated from the USN Aegeis cruisers/destroyers....As you are well aware, this is a huge force multiplier. 2 f35's can act as their own mutually supporting awacs, wingmen, etc.
The F35 can run dark. That is, it can use all other info generation without turning on its own radar...a huge advantage in A2A....
Those who claim that its lack of straight line speed, or clean maneuverability, really do not understand the strengths of this fighter.
My two cents..

[Rockie]

Rockie,
Cabinet members are only allowed to be independent and free thinking under the direction of the PM. It matters not who is the PM. Cretien ran a very strict and regulated cabinet as well.

Maybe you've been out of the country the last ten years, but there has never been a cabinet as powerless as Harpers. 25 year old staffers in the PMO were dictating policy and all but had their hands up inside cabinet ministers heads moving their mouth on the almost non-existent occasion one of them was actually permitted to speak publicly.

The F35 will have integrated sensors/electronics that will allow it to download and use ANY radar/intelligence. So, an F35 will be able to use the radar picture gathered from the huge over the horizon radars currently employed by NORAD. Theycould also use the radar picture generated from the USN Aegeis cruisers/destroyers....As you are well aware, this is a huge force multiplier.

Data and targeting information isn't limited to the F-35 as you are well aware, but even if F-35's are then next thing to an X-wing fighter they can't be in two places at once. Look at a map of the north again, numbers count more than being invisible to radar or receiving data linked information about targets 800 miles away, not to mention redundancy of engines (yes...again).

[B208]

Perhaps you can explain why a government minister in charge needs to have a single last name, needs to be white, needs to be male, and needs to know about fighter aircraft to run their department?

That's a good question. Why don't you ask Justin why he selected his cabinet based primarily on ethnicity and gender? Cultural Marxism at it's finest.

You prefer the time honoured method of regional representation used by most governments prior to this one? Or how about the mute trained seals Harper installed who only did what the PMO says?

The current cabinet have functional, independent brains that they're actually allowed to use to go along with their resemblance to Canadian society. Everybody including the civil service has an adjustment to make back to how departments are supposed to work after 10 years of Harper's one man rule, how about you wait and see how it works before condemning it?

And again, cultural Marxism at its finest; Suppress an inconvenient truth by distracting people with an emotive, and irrelevant appeal.

So, again, Rockie; Why is it a OK to base selection decisions on race/gender vice aptitude for the job?

[Rockie]

So, again, Rockie; Why is it a OK to base selection decisions on race/gender vice aptitude for the job?

What makes you think the cabinet ministers aren't extremely capable, who isn't, why aren't they, and what expertise do you bring to the table to make that determination?

Let me guess - you were on the cabinet selection committee and know beyond a doubt that capability and expertise never entered into the equation. Right?

[complexintentions]

Oh brother. You can't have it both ways, Rockie. It was the Liberals and Trudeau himself who chose to trumpet the fact that the cabinet has "gender equity" to try and score points. What other conclusion can be drawn from that, than that this was a more important criteria than "capability and expertise"? Yes, I do hope to dear Dog that the chosen appointees also happen to have more going for them than the correct chromosome, but this surely doesn't inspire confidence, does it? I've never known something that someone has no control over, such as gender or race, to be a reliable predictor of ability, in either direction.

Not to mention, the cabinet is anything but equitable - if the criteria is to be set by mathematics.

Mr. Trudeau also prides himself on having formed the first federal cabinet with gender parity. False again. It is actually built on gender inequity. The Liberal caucus counts 134 men and 50 women, meaning that at the outset, every female MP had roughly three chances more than her male colleagues to be appointed to cabinet. Shouldn’t gender equity apply to men as well?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-de ... e27200206/

You can't try and score points for being PC and then be surprised when you get called out for it. Why don't people just quit f*cking around with nonsense like bickering about picking people based on genitalia and skin colour and get some intelligent, sensible people in place to do their damn jobs? The country is becoming a laughingstock as it slides down the economic drain.

I realize that politics has never been a meritocracy, but one can hope. As I cringed watching Canada's PM selfie-ing his way through the crowd in Manila it dawned on me the movie Idiocracy really isn't satire any longer. Canada truly did elect a government in step with the times.

The F-35 question is the least of your worries.

[tailgunner]

Rockie,
You are right, the f35 cannot be in two places at the same time, but then again NO fighter can.
I would rather have a fighter that can ALWAYS be in the right place at the right time, rather than have an entire flight of fighters patrolling empty airspace, hoping for a hit.
The data link system will allow f 35's the ability to patrol using ALL of NATO's and NORADS info...
Sensors and information fusion are the future, as speed was for the century series, and maneuverability was for the F16-18....
Cheers.

[Rockie]

Of course Trudeau trumpeted the fact half the cabinet is female with a several aboriginals and other ethnic minorities. Why wouldn't he? Plus it's about time don't you think?

But only an idiot would believe that was the only criteria. Time will tell how good these people will be at the head of their respective departments, but for the most part I'm pretty happy with what I've seen and heard so far. Dismissing them outright because of their gender or the colour of their skin without giving them a chance to perform is unbelievably closed minded.

[Rockie]

Tail gunner

MORE fighters can be in more places at once than an extremely limited number of F-35's. Did you know the number 65 was reduced from the original minimum requirement because of out of control costs? Did you know there is no plan to replace losses?

What good is the jet if there are so few of them they're nowhere near where they need to be when they're needed? Electronic force multipliers don't overcome physical distance or absence of an actual airplane where it's needed, plus it's not like anybody without F-35's will have an ineffective fighter force. That's a myth Lockheed and people wet in the shorts to get that jet want you to believe.

[Old fella]

Close to 10 yrs of Harper, I had enough of it, glad to say my vote went in the direction of his removal. As for his(Trudeau) up-front crew(Cabinet), well it seems to be some talent there as suggested in their curriculum vitae. Lot stronger than some of Harpers ideologues like Pierre P to name one and that parrot Paul Calandra. Be interesting to see how the Trudeau lot will mesh as the years progress, at least for now tis more open and accessible.