Negotiations

[flyer 1492]

Probably too busy picking up OT. At least one LEC would be....

[androids]

10 months going on a year of this thread, and what's changed? Lol..

Here's some fun food for thought (*math*) for everyone to peruse.

First the disclaimer:
The numbers used are very rough scratchpad figures - rounded conservatively. The numbers are based on well known public general industry wide baselines, very easy for anyone to find. They are based on the Canadian aviation market (which has not changed in over 50 plus years).

I highly recommend using these numbers and math below vs. what you might hear through the grapevine, LEC, MEC, mentors, trainers, avcanada lifers etc..

You = Pilot, nameless. Known within multiple different Enterprise solution databases as either a 6 digit or 3/4 digit number. That is it.
Each number is accounted for the same way any other business input (cost) is accounted for, ie. fuel, maintenance, insurance etc.. it's fluffed up a bit with a line item title like Salary or Compensation.. but still a nameless #. That is it.

Each number contributes approximately (again very rough here) $600000 to $900000 CAD gross business activity revenue per month per pilot. OR $7.2 million to $10.8 million CAD per year per pilot.

NOW...

38% to 44% of this gross business revenue is deducted for fuel, maintenance.
30% to 35% of this gross business revenue is deducted for fees, taxes.

This leaves $2.3 million per year per pilot.

BUT...

Don't forget about everyone else involved.. because counter to how a pilot's brain is generally hard wired, a pilots ability to fly a plane is dependent on many other people. In fact, per flight hour this equates to upwards of 15 other people. Many of whom make more than you do..

SO...

All in there are 17 humans contributing to $2.3 million of partial net business revenue per year = $135000 per PERSON per year.

IMPORTANT...

Profit, shareholders, debt etc.. All of this draws from each of your $135k pot. All in, deduct 14% to 20% here AT LEAST. I'll leave the last bit of math for you. BTW.. the DEBT part is a nightmare, TRUST ME!

NOW...

Most of you have been drinking the kool-aid for years, well before your 1st solo. Pilots make LOTS of money.. and if they don't, they are ENTITLED to LOTS of money. But remember.. about half of those 17 people make MORE than you do. So the math gets a bit tricky here now doesn't it?

I could go on and on and on.. and there are hundreds if not thousands of different ways to break these numbers down.. trust me I know. And business leaders have been breaking these same numbers down for decades. At the end of the day you'll always come out with the same end result. Trust me.

SO...

Where should I leave this now? Well.. the reality is for pilots flying 78 seat regional aircraft you will NEVER be able to earn what you THINK you'll be able to earn. EVER. If you think otherwise, then go fly in the States.

WANT MORE?...

Then plug the same numbers on a NB and again on a WB (if you want even more $$).

Many of you could be there right now actually if you had stuck it out at your 703/704 for a bit of turbo prop PIC time.. AC hiring 350 and 1900 drivers OTS, so is WJ, so is Flair, so is Lynx. trust me on this one.. I know.

SO...

If you keep drinking the kool-aid then sit down, shut up and fly the plane. You're only at the beginning of a long long long journey, multiple partners, multiple moves, multiple rides through furloughs, layoff, mergers, consolidations etc, multiple steps up the long kool-aid ladder until you finally get to the coveted final 10 years of your career. By then god only knows what kind of disgruntled un-happy human you've become - but at least you're FINALLY close to retirement!

If you're sick of the kool-aid then take a step back and look at the bigger picture here. There are easier, faster and quite frankly more intelligent ways to cross the finish line.

Cheers boys and girls!

[truedude]

10 months going on a year of this thread, and what's changed? Lol..

Here's some fun food for thought (*math*) for everyone to peruse.

First the disclaimer:
The numbers used are very rough scratchpad figures - rounded conservatively. The numbers are based on well known public general industry wide baselines, very easy for anyone to find. They are based on the Canadian aviation market (which has not changed in over 50 plus years).

I highly recommend using these numbers and math below vs. what you might hear through the grapevine, LEC, MEC, mentors, trainers, avcanada lifers etc..

You = Pilot, nameless. Known within multiple different Enterprise solution databases as either a 6 digit or 3/4 digit number. That is it.
Each number is accounted for the same way any other business input (cost) is accounted for, ie. fuel, maintenance, insurance etc.. it's fluffed up a bit with a line item title like Salary or Compensation.. but still a nameless #. That is it.

Each number contributes approximately (again very rough here) $600000 to $900000 CAD gross business activity revenue per month per pilot. OR $7.2 million to $10.8 million CAD per year per pilot.

NOW...

38% to 44% of this gross business revenue is deducted for fuel, maintenance.
30% to 35% of this gross business revenue is deducted for fees, taxes.

This leaves $2.3 million per year per pilot.

BUT...

Don't forget about everyone else involved.. because counter to how a pilot's brain is generally hard wired, a pilots ability to fly a plane is dependent on many other people. In fact, per flight hour this equates to upwards of 15 other people. Many of whom make more than you do..

SO...

All in there are 17 humans contributing to $2.3 million of partial net business revenue per year = $135000 per PERSON per year.

IMPORTANT...

Profit, shareholders, debt etc.. All of this draws from each of your $135k pot. All in, deduct 14% to 20% here AT LEAST. I'll leave the last bit of math for you. BTW.. the DEBT part is a nightmare, TRUST ME!

NOW...

Most of you have been drinking the kool-aid for years, well before your 1st solo. Pilots make LOTS of money.. and if they don't, they are ENTITLED to LOTS of money. But remember.. about half of those 17 people make MORE than you do. So the math gets a bit tricky here now doesn't it?

I could go on and on and on.. and there are hundreds if not thousands of different ways to break these numbers down.. trust me I know. And business leaders have been breaking these same numbers down for decades. At the end of the day you'll always come out with the same end result. Trust me.

SO...

Where should I leave this now? Well.. the reality is for pilots flying 78 seat regional aircraft you will NEVER be able to earn what you THINK you'll be able to earn. EVER. If you think otherwise, then go fly in the States.

WANT MORE?...

Then plug the same numbers on a NB and again on a WB (if you want even more $$).

Many of you could be there right now actually if you had stuck it out at your 703/704 for a bit of turbo prop PIC time.. AC hiring 350 and 1900 drivers OTS, so is WJ, so is Flair, so is Lynx. trust me on this one.. I know.

SO...

If you keep drinking the kool-aid then sit down, shut up and fly the plane. You're only at the beginning of a long long long journey, multiple partners, multiple moves, multiple rides through furloughs, layoff, mergers, consolidations etc, multiple steps up the long kool-aid ladder until you finally get to the coveted final 10 years of your career. By then god only knows what kind of disgruntled un-happy human you've become - but at least you're FINALLY close to retirement!

If you're sick of the kool-aid then take a step back and look at the bigger picture here. There are easier, faster and quite frankly more intelligent ways to cross the finish line.

Cheers boys and girls!

This is one of the dumbest things I have read on here in a long time.

They will pay more, because they have to, or Jazz will not exist by Christmas. It is that simple. We are talking a couple bucks more per ticket, that most people won't hesitate to spend on a coffee in the airport.

So they have a choice, pay more, or we all watch the company fail. I'm okay with either.

[cdnavater]

10 months going on a year of this thread, and what's changed? Lol..

Here's some fun food for thought (*math*) for everyone to peruse.

First the disclaimer:
The numbers used are very rough scratchpad figures - rounded conservatively. The numbers are based on well known public general industry wide baselines, very easy for anyone to find. They are based on the Canadian aviation market (which has not changed in over 50 plus years).

I highly recommend using these numbers and math below vs. what you might hear through the grapevine, LEC, MEC, mentors, trainers, avcanada lifers etc..

You = Pilot, nameless. Known within multiple different Enterprise solution databases as either a 6 digit or 3/4 digit number. That is it.
Each number is accounted for the same way any other business input (cost) is accounted for, ie. fuel, maintenance, insurance etc.. it's fluffed up a bit with a line item title like Salary or Compensation.. but still a nameless #. That is it.

Each number contributes approximately (again very rough here) $600000 to $900000 CAD gross business activity revenue per month per pilot. OR $7.2 million to $10.8 million CAD per year per pilot.

NOW...

38% to 44% of this gross business revenue is deducted for fuel, maintenance.
30% to 35% of this gross business revenue is deducted for fees, taxes.

This leaves $2.3 million per year per pilot.

BUT...

Don't forget about everyone else involved.. because counter to how a pilot's brain is generally hard wired, a pilots ability to fly a plane is dependent on many other people. In fact, per flight hour this equates to upwards of 15 other people. Many of whom make more than you do..

SO...

All in there are 17 humans contributing to $2.3 million of partial net business revenue per year = $135000 per PERSON per year.

IMPORTANT...

Profit, shareholders, debt etc.. All of this draws from each of your $135k pot. All in, deduct 14% to 20% here AT LEAST. I'll leave the last bit of math for you. BTW.. the DEBT part is a nightmare, TRUST ME!

NOW...

Most of you have been drinking the kool-aid for years, well before your 1st solo. Pilots make LOTS of money.. and if they don't, they are ENTITLED to LOTS of money. But remember.. about half of those 17 people make MORE than you do. So the math gets a bit tricky here now doesn't it?

I could go on and on and on.. and there are hundreds if not thousands of different ways to break these numbers down.. trust me I know. And business leaders have been breaking these same numbers down for decades. At the end of the day you'll always come out with the same end result. Trust me.

SO...

Where should I leave this now? Well.. the reality is for pilots flying 78 seat regional aircraft you will NEVER be able to earn what you THINK you'll be able to earn. EVER. If you think otherwise, then go fly in the States.

WANT MORE?...

Then plug the same numbers on a NB and again on a WB (if you want even more $$).

Many of you could be there right now actually if you had stuck it out at your 703/704 for a bit of turbo prop PIC time.. AC hiring 350 and 1900 drivers OTS, so is WJ, so is Flair, so is Lynx. trust me on this one.. I know.

SO...

If you keep drinking the kool-aid then sit down, shut up and fly the plane. You're only at the beginning of a long long long journey, multiple partners, multiple moves, multiple rides through furloughs, layoff, mergers, consolidations etc, multiple steps up the long kool-aid ladder until you finally get to the coveted final 10 years of your career. By then god only knows what kind of disgruntled un-happy human you've become - but at least you're FINALLY close to retirement!

If you're sick of the kool-aid then take a step back and look at the bigger picture here. There are easier, faster and quite frankly more intelligent ways to cross the finish line.

Cheers boys and girls!

This is one of the dumbest things I have read on here in a long time.

They will pay more, because they have to, or Jazz will not exist by Christmas. It is that simple. We are talking a couple bucks more per ticket, that most people won't hesitate to spend on a coffee in the airport.

So they have a choice, pay more, or we all watch the company fail. I'm okay with either.

Truedude,
I get it, you’re angry but Jazz has about 600ish pilots who aren’t or can’t leave except for when they retire, they could staff 80 aircraft with that and the bottom 600 who are to inexperienced to go elsewhere.
As of March 2023 there are 600 pilots hired before 2015, 60 less than Jan 2022 list, an estimated 100 of them not on the roster for disability or trainer, so with some hired after 2015 who maybe don’t want to leave and start over or no offers we could fill the left seat for 80 fins, the rest will be a constant state of hire, train, rinse repeat. The hiring will stabilize if you’re hiring those who are not able to move, AC pays for the training
Jazz disappearing is low on the probability scale, shrinking is more in the 98% range, this is going to happen in the next 2 months, there will be an announcement shortly that the CPA has been renegotiated with a more permanent CPA for PAL.
Maybe Jazz will be an all 76 seat jet fleet and PAL doing the q flying with the transfer taking a one to one fleet replacement type of deal, as we take on a new jet, transfer a q to them.

[truedude]

10 months going on a year of this thread, and what's changed? Lol..

Here's some fun food for thought (*math*) for everyone to peruse.

First the disclaimer:
The numbers used are very rough scratchpad figures - rounded conservatively. The numbers are based on well known public general industry wide baselines, very easy for anyone to find. They are based on the Canadian aviation market (which has not changed in over 50 plus years).

I highly recommend using these numbers and math below vs. what you might hear through the grapevine, LEC, MEC, mentors, trainers, avcanada lifers etc..

You = Pilot, nameless. Known within multiple different Enterprise solution databases as either a 6 digit or 3/4 digit number. That is it.
Each number is accounted for the same way any other business input (cost) is accounted for, ie. fuel, maintenance, insurance etc.. it's fluffed up a bit with a line item title like Salary or Compensation.. but still a nameless #. That is it.

Each number contributes approximately (again very rough here) $600000 to $900000 CAD gross business activity revenue per month per pilot. OR $7.2 million to $10.8 million CAD per year per pilot.

NOW...

38% to 44% of this gross business revenue is deducted for fuel, maintenance.
30% to 35% of this gross business revenue is deducted for fees, taxes.

This leaves $2.3 million per year per pilot.

BUT...

Don't forget about everyone else involved.. because counter to how a pilot's brain is generally hard wired, a pilots ability to fly a plane is dependent on many other people. In fact, per flight hour this equates to upwards of 15 other people. Many of whom make more than you do..

SO...

All in there are 17 humans contributing to $2.3 million of partial net business revenue per year = $135000 per PERSON per year.

IMPORTANT...

Profit, shareholders, debt etc.. All of this draws from each of your $135k pot. All in, deduct 14% to 20% here AT LEAST. I'll leave the last bit of math for you. BTW.. the DEBT part is a nightmare, TRUST ME!

NOW...

Most of you have been drinking the kool-aid for years, well before your 1st solo. Pilots make LOTS of money.. and if they don't, they are ENTITLED to LOTS of money. But remember.. about half of those 17 people make MORE than you do. So the math gets a bit tricky here now doesn't it?

I could go on and on and on.. and there are hundreds if not thousands of different ways to break these numbers down.. trust me I know. And business leaders have been breaking these same numbers down for decades. At the end of the day you'll always come out with the same end result. Trust me.

SO...

Where should I leave this now? Well.. the reality is for pilots flying 78 seat regional aircraft you will NEVER be able to earn what you THINK you'll be able to earn. EVER. If you think otherwise, then go fly in the States.

WANT MORE?...

Then plug the same numbers on a NB and again on a WB (if you want even more $$).

Many of you could be there right now actually if you had stuck it out at your 703/704 for a bit of turbo prop PIC time.. AC hiring 350 and 1900 drivers OTS, so is WJ, so is Flair, so is Lynx. trust me on this one.. I know.

SO...

If you keep drinking the kool-aid then sit down, shut up and fly the plane. You're only at the beginning of a long long long journey, multiple partners, multiple moves, multiple rides through furloughs, layoff, mergers, consolidations etc, multiple steps up the long kool-aid ladder until you finally get to the coveted final 10 years of your career. By then god only knows what kind of disgruntled un-happy human you've become - but at least you're FINALLY close to retirement!

If you're sick of the kool-aid then take a step back and look at the bigger picture here. There are easier, faster and quite frankly more intelligent ways to cross the finish line.

Cheers boys and girls!

This is one of the dumbest things I have read on here in a long time.

They will pay more, because they have to, or Jazz will not exist by Christmas. It is that simple. We are talking a couple bucks more per ticket, that most people won't hesitate to spend on a coffee in the airport.

So they have a choice, pay more, or we all watch the company fail. I'm okay with either.

Truedude,
I get it, you’re angry but Jazz has about 600ish pilots who aren’t or can’t leave except for when they retire, they could staff 80 aircraft with that and the bottom 600 who are to inexperienced to go elsewhere.
As of March 2023 there are 600 pilots hired before 2015, 60 less than Jan 2022 list, an estimated 100 of them not on the roster for disability or trainer, so with some hired after 2015 who maybe don’t want to leave and start over or no offers we could fill the left seat for 80 fins, the rest will be a constant state of hire, train, rinse repeat. The hiring will stabilize if you’re hiring those who are not able to move, AC pays for the training
Jazz disappearing is low on the probability scale, shrinking is more in the 98% range, this is going to happen in the next 2 months, there will be an announcement shortly that the CPA has been renegotiated with a more permanent CPA for PAL.
Maybe Jazz will be an all 76 seat jet fleet and PAL doing the q flying with the transfer taking a one to one fleet replacement type of deal, as we take on a new jet, transfer a q to them.

First I think you need to take a look at how many of those 600 pilots are on a med leave. Then check how many have 20 or so years left. There are not 600 pilots that will stay at a Jazz that is just dying.

There is no advantage for me to leave at the moment. But if that is the plan for Jazz, I'm gone. There aren't many left after that.

So no, there won't be a Jazz left. And I'm not mad. I'm indifferent as someone with options usually is. If the CPA is renegotiate with no uplift, I'm gone. And I know a lot of pre 2015 people that will be going too.

[cdnavater]

This is one of the dumbest things I have read on here in a long time.

They will pay more, because they have to, or Jazz will not exist by Christmas. It is that simple. We are talking a couple bucks more per ticket, that most people won't hesitate to spend on a coffee in the airport.

So they have a choice, pay more, or we all watch the company fail. I'm okay with either.

Truedude,
I get it, you’re angry but Jazz has about 600ish pilots who aren’t or can’t leave except for when they retire, they could staff 80 aircraft with that and the bottom 600 who are to inexperienced to go elsewhere.
As of March 2023 there are 600 pilots hired before 2015, 60 less than Jan 2022 list, an estimated 100 of them not on the roster for disability or trainer, so with some hired after 2015 who maybe don’t want to leave and start over or no offers we could fill the left seat for 80 fins, the rest will be a constant state of hire, train, rinse repeat. The hiring will stabilize if you’re hiring those who are not able to move, AC pays for the training
Jazz disappearing is low on the probability scale, shrinking is more in the 98% range, this is going to happen in the next 2 months, there will be an announcement shortly that the CPA has been renegotiated with a more permanent CPA for PAL.
Maybe Jazz will be an all 76 seat jet fleet and PAL doing the q flying with the transfer taking a one to one fleet replacement type of deal, as we take on a new jet, transfer a q to them.

First I think you need to take a look at how many of those 600 pilots are on a med leave. Then check how many have 20 or so years left. There are not 600 pilots that will stay at a Jazz that is just dying.

There is no advantage for me to leave at the moment. But if that is the plan for Jazz, I'm gone. There aren't many left after that.

So no, there won't be a Jazz left. And I'm not mad. I'm indifferent as someone with options usually is. If the CPA is renegotiate with no uplift, I'm gone. And I know a lot of pre 2015 people that will be going too.

The thing is, before the shortage of experienced pilots came to fruition, I was happy was my pay progression and top pay.
Even without massive increases not much will change for me, sure inflation has chipped away at my discretionary money but I live a comfortable life and have a great home, all my toys and some savings. I also have a pension that all of my friends envy, so I think you might be overestimating how many pre 2015 hires will give up the pension and top pay scale to start over.
It’s very easy to say,”I’m gone” a completely different thing to pull the trigger.
I actually ran the numbers with the new WJ contract out of curiosity, it would take five years to get back to where I am today and another three before I could start pulling ahead, leaving a few years before I retire. Probably never make left seat there, if you’re close to 50, that’s the reality! That’s assuming no increase at all for us, which if I remember correctly the long term contract we signed had a reopening where pay is subject to review and arbitration based on inflation. That should at the very least get us an increase to cover the inflation difference.

[truedude]

Truedude,
I get it, you’re angry but Jazz has about 600ish pilots who aren’t or can’t leave except for when they retire, they could staff 80 aircraft with that and the bottom 600 who are to inexperienced to go elsewhere.
As of March 2023 there are 600 pilots hired before 2015, 60 less than Jan 2022 list, an estimated 100 of them not on the roster for disability or trainer, so with some hired after 2015 who maybe don’t want to leave and start over or no offers we could fill the left seat for 80 fins, the rest will be a constant state of hire, train, rinse repeat. The hiring will stabilize if you’re hiring those who are not able to move, AC pays for the training
Jazz disappearing is low on the probability scale, shrinking is more in the 98% range, this is going to happen in the next 2 months, there will be an announcement shortly that the CPA has been renegotiated with a more permanent CPA for PAL.
Maybe Jazz will be an all 76 seat jet fleet and PAL doing the q flying with the transfer taking a one to one fleet replacement type of deal, as we take on a new jet, transfer a q to them.

First I think you need to take a look at how many of those 600 pilots are on a med leave. Then check how many have 20 or so years left. There are not 600 pilots that will stay at a Jazz that is just dying.

There is no advantage for me to leave at the moment. But if that is the plan for Jazz, I'm gone. There aren't many left after that.

So no, there won't be a Jazz left. And I'm not mad. I'm indifferent as someone with options usually is. If the CPA is renegotiate with no uplift, I'm gone. And I know a lot of pre 2015 people that will be going too.

The thing is, before the shortage of experienced pilots came to fruition, I was happy was my pay progression and top pay.
Even without massive increases not much will change for me, sure inflation has chipped away at my discretionary money but I live a comfortable life and have a great home, all my toys and some savings. I also have a pension that all of my friends envy, so I think you might be overestimating how many pre 2015 hires will give up the pension and top pay scale to start over.
It’s very easy to say,”I’m gone” a completely different thing to pull the trigger.
I actually ran the numbers with the new WJ contract out of curiosity, it would take five years to get back to where I am today and another three before I could start pulling ahead, leaving a few years before I retire. Probably never make left seat there, if you’re close to 50, that’s the reality! That’s assuming no increase at all for us, which if I remember correctly the long term contract we signed had a reopening where pay is subject to review and arbitration based on inflation. That should at the very least get us an increase to cover the inflation difference.

Nah, I know lots that are looking already. Some will stay, but not enough. And they won't be able to hire anyone who can sit in the left seat. And by the time they can, they will be gone anywhere but here. I will not be a custodian over a dead airline, there only to keep it on life support.

And you looked at Westjet, but there are lots of other options, and more everyday that will be falling over themselves for experienced pilots.

Jazz is done unless it stops bleeding pilots, and pays. The window to fix this now is very small.

[ant_321]

It’s really sad what’s happening at Jazz. When I started flying (not all that long ago) if you got on at Jazz you had “made it”. I got a job offer there in 2015 and was ecstatic. 2 days later I got a job offer at SWG and took that instead. At the time many people thought I was crazy, that’s how much Jazz was respected.

I have 3 friends there in their 40’s who thought they were lifers. Never applied to AC or anywhere else for that matter. All 3 of them interviewed elsewhere this month and all are leaving if they get the job offer. They will be 5-15 years behind where they could have been career wise. I feel really bad for anyone who decided to hang their hat at what used to be a good career airline and is now having to deal with all this.

[truedude]

It’s really sad what’s happening at Jazz. When I started flying (not all that long ago) if you got on at Jazz you had “made it”. I got a job offer there in 2015 and was ecstatic. 2 days later I got a job offer at SWG and took that instead. At the time many people thought I was crazy, that’s how much Jazz was respected.

I have 3 friends there in their 40’s who thought they were lifers. Never applied to AC or anywhere else for that matter. All 3 of them interviewed elsewhere this month and all are leaving if they get the job offer. They will be 5-15 years behind where they could have been career wise. I feel really bad for anyone who decided to hang their hat at what used to be a good career airline and is now having to deal with all this.

It is very sad what is happening at Jazz. And with no indication things will improve it just gets worse. We are losing trainers by the day as well, which of course continues to complicate things. Used to be a post held by guys with 20 years of experience, now going to f/o's.

Everything about it feels like a dying company, hence the continued mass exodus. You need a certain level of experience to stay, and between retirements, AC flow, and those grabbing life boats, you will eventually reach a point in which the operation is no longer sustainable. I think we are close.

It also feels like we are getting into the same sort of scenario that contributed to Collagen Air's crash.

But I'm not to bothered by having to go elsewhere and start over. That is the natural ebs and flow of life. But what I am absolutely not prepared to do again, is sell myself below my value to keep this dumpster fire going one minute longer. If they want to benefit from my experience, they are going to have to pay for it. Or I'll head on off to the next adventure.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Company should put their nose into the LTD ... It is so expensive and alot are abusing.. Just myself know 3 pilots.. top scale pilots who could come back tomorrow but decide to stay home..

Instead of contributing, they're collecting and it's everyone that pays for those... Benefits are already super expensive, let's not cover those who makes it worst and keep some money in our own pockets

[hithere]

Oh my god dude… do you not realize it’s illegal(not to mention unethical) for the company(or union or anyone for that matter)to pry into someone’s medical condition? You must be a troll and/or stupid. Not to mention that the financial hit on LTD is substantial and one would make more money flying the line. On STD there is an argument that you could conceivably take home more than flying the line but that only last for your first year of disability and after that on LTD you definitely take home less than flying the line. In order to be on LTD your medical usually needs to be revoked so it’s not like these guys are collected LTD cheques and flying for some other carrier(ie double dipping). The only way they’d be making cash on the side would be some non aviation cash job etc.

[hsilgnepilot]

Oh my god dude… do you not realize it’s illegal(not to mention unethical) for the company(or union or anyone for that matter)to pry into someone’s medical condition? You must be a troll and/or stupid. Not to mention that the financial hit on LTD is substantial and one would make more money flying the line. On STD there is an argument that you could conceivably take home more than flying the line but that only last for your first year of disability and after that on LTD you definitely take home less than flying the line. In order to be on LTD your medical usually needs to be revoked so it’s not like these guys are collected LTD cheques and flying for some other carrier(ie double dipping). The only way they’d be making cash on the side would be some non aviation cash job etc.

He's not wrong. Its an abused system. Yes, people who are on it likely lost their medicals and are not double dipping within the aviation industry, but I know of a few who certainly are dragging their feet with the process of getting it back, and have found second jobs outside the sector to supplement income.

[rudder]

Oh my god dude… do you not realize it’s illegal(not to mention unethical) for the company(or union or anyone for that matter)to pry into someone’s medical condition? You must be a troll and/or stupid. Not to mention that the financial hit on LTD is substantial and one would make more money flying the line. On STD there is an argument that you could conceivably take home more than flying the line but that only last for your first year of disability and after that on LTD you definitely take home less than flying the line. In order to be on LTD your medical usually needs to be revoked so it’s not like these guys are collected LTD cheques and flying for some other carrier(ie double dipping). The only way they’d be making cash on the side would be some non aviation cash job etc.

He's not wrong. Its an abused system. Yes, people who are on it likely lost their medicals and are not double dipping within the aviation industry, but I know of a few who certainly are dragging their feet with the process of getting it back, and have found second jobs outside the sector to supplement income.

Abused? No. Oversubscribed? Yes.

Too many pilots on med leave for too long. Also, should not be cradle-to-grave (absent totally disabled).

And if any med leave Pilot is earning undeclared income on the side then yes - it is fraud. If the aggregate of STD/LTD and outside income exceeds 90% of pre-disability income, then the overage is clawed back on a dollar for dollar basis from the STD/LTD benefit.

[flyingcanuck]

Oh my god dude… do you not realize it’s illegal(not to mention unethical) for the company(or union or anyone for that matter)to pry into someone’s medical condition? You must be a troll and/or stupid. Not to mention that the financial hit on LTD is substantial and one would make more money flying the line. On STD there is an argument that you could conceivably take home more than flying the line but that only last for your first year of disability and after that on LTD you definitely take home less than flying the line. In order to be on LTD your medical usually needs to be revoked so it’s not like these guys are collected LTD cheques and flying for some other carrier(ie double dipping). The only way they’d be making cash on the side would be some non aviation cash job etc.

He's not wrong. Its an abused system. Yes, people who are on it likely lost their medicals and are not double dipping within the aviation industry, but I know of a few who certainly are dragging their feet with the process of getting it back, and have found second jobs outside the sector to supplement income.

Abused? No. Oversubscribed? Yes.

what is the difference? if you know you shouldn't be on LTD but decide to stay on, that's abusing the system

[hsilgnepilot]

He's not wrong. Its an abused system. Yes, people who are on it likely lost their medicals and are not double dipping within the aviation industry, but I know of a few who certainly are dragging their feet with the process of getting it back, and have found second jobs outside the sector to supplement income.

Abused? No. Oversubscribed? Yes.

what is the difference? if you know you shouldn't be on LTD but decide to stay on, that's abusing the system

That said, it would definitely help take home pay if STD, LTD, and health care were 100% covered by Jazz.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Abused? No. Oversubscribed? Yes.

what is the difference? if you know you shouldn't be on LTD but decide to stay on, that's abusing the system

That said, it would definitely help take home pay if STD, LTD, and health care were 100% covered by Jazz.

Part of the reason why I left. Deductions were absolutely ludicrous.

[Inverted2]

There are definitely abusers of the system. 100%. Not just a Jazz thing but across all fields of work. It is too lucrative at Jazz for people on STD/LTD. They don’t even bother questioning people anymore. I know of a guy off because the Dash 8 environmental system “gave him asthma”.Well guess what? The Dash 8’s have been gone for 18 months. Is he back to fly something else? Nope.
Another F/O spent 2+ years off. Came back. Did their Captain upgrade. Flew a month and you guessed it. Right back on STD now at a much higher pay rate.

[Inverted2]

“ Abused? No. Oversubscribed? Yes.”

There are people here who are professional scammers who could be doing TED Talk style seminars on how to @#$! the dog and get paid. You’ve been here longer than anyone. You know that!

[Inverted2]

Company should put their nose into the LTD ... It is so expensive and alot are abusing.. Just myself know 3 pilots.. top scale pilots who could come back tomorrow but decide to stay home..

Instead of contributing, they're collecting and it's everyone that pays for those... Benefits are already super expensive, let's not cover those who makes it worst and keep some money in our own pockets

And many of these folks would be perfectly capable of doing IPT or Simulator training if they can’t fly or be retrained into some other line of work within the company.

[hsilgnepilot]

Company should put their nose into the LTD ... It is so expensive and alot are abusing.. Just myself know 3 pilots.. top scale pilots who could come back tomorrow but decide to stay home..

Instead of contributing, they're collecting and it's everyone that pays for those... Benefits are already super expensive, let's not cover those who makes it worst and keep some money in our own pockets

And many of these folks would be perfectly capable of doing IPT or Simulator training if they can’t fly or be retrained into some other line of work within the company.

You absolutely nailed that one on the head. Can’t fly? That’s fine - Off to the training department you go.

[cdnavater]

Company should put their nose into the LTD ... It is so expensive and alot are abusing.. Just myself know 3 pilots.. top scale pilots who could come back tomorrow but decide to stay home..

Instead of contributing, they're collecting and it's everyone that pays for those... Benefits are already super expensive, let's not cover those who makes it worst and keep some money in our own pockets

And many of these folks would be perfectly capable of doing IPT or Simulator training if they can’t fly or be retrained into some other line of work within the company.

You absolutely nailed that one on the head. Can’t fly? That’s fine - Off to the training department you go.

First, there are many already doing this!
Second, our LTD has an own occupation clause.
It’s voluntary but let’s say you could force them back to work, what about the ones who want to fill that role, prevented because of this, not to mention, you are limited to what you can do as a non licenced trainer. The ratio would lean heavily toward licenced pilots filling the role.
There are more on disability than position available and who wants somebody training who was forced there, not a positive environment.
How do we decide who is forced to the training department? A guy fighting cancer, is he off the hook?
You complain about the deductions but I guarantee if you need it your tune will change!

[Man_in_the_sky]

And many of these folks would be perfectly capable of doing IPT or Simulator training if they can’t fly or be retrained into some other line of work within the company.

You absolutely nailed that one on the head. Can’t fly? That’s fine - Off to the training department you go.

First, there are many already doing this!
Second, our LTD has an own occupation clause.
It’s voluntary but let’s say you could force them back to work, what about the ones who want to fill that role, prevented because of this, not to mention, you are limited to what you can do as a non licenced trainer. The ratio would lean heavily toward licenced pilots filling the role.
There are more on disability than position available and who wants somebody training who was forced there, not a positive environment.
How do we decide who is forced to the training department? A guy fighting cancer, is he off the hook?
You complain about the deductions but I guarantee if you need it your tune will change!

Don't put stuff in my mouth.

If you need LTD, for god sake, use it !!
100%, until 65 if required..

I was refering to those abusing the system, that makes the premium higher than it should actually be.

[Fullflaps]

You absolutely nailed that one on the head. Can’t fly? That’s fine - Off to the training department you go.

First, there are many already doing this!
Second, our LTD has an own occupation clause.
It’s voluntary but let’s say you could force them back to work, what about the ones who want to fill that role, prevented because of this, not to mention, you are limited to what you can do as a non licenced trainer. The ratio would lean heavily toward licenced pilots filling the role.
There are more on disability than position available and who wants somebody training who was forced there, not a positive environment.
How do we decide who is forced to the training department? A guy fighting cancer, is he off the hook?
You complain about the deductions but I guarantee if you need it your tune will change!

Don't put stuff in my mouth.

If you need LTD, for god sake, use it !!
100%, until 65 if required..

I was refering to those abusing the system, that makes the premium higher than it should actually be.

Dont put stuff in your mouth ?

[cdnavater]

First, there are many already doing this!
Second, our LTD has an own occupation clause.
It’s voluntary but let’s say you could force them back to work, what about the ones who want to fill that role, prevented because of this, not to mention, you are limited to what you can do as a non licenced trainer. The ratio would lean heavily toward licenced pilots filling the role.
There are more on disability than position available and who wants somebody training who was forced there, not a positive environment.
How do we decide who is forced to the training department? A guy fighting cancer, is he off the hook?
You complain about the deductions but I guarantee if you need it your tune will change!

Don't put stuff in my mouth.

If you need LTD, for god sake, use it !!
100%, until 65 if required..

I was refering to those abusing the system, that makes the premium higher than it should actually be.

Dont put stuff in your mouth ?

Funny, I’m sure he/she/they/them meant “words”

[airway]

It also feels like we are getting into the same sort of scenario that contributed to Collagen Air's crash.

The Colgan crew actually had some experience:

Colgan’s flight records indicated that the captain had accumulated 3,379 hours of total
flying time, including 3,051 hours in turbine airplanes, 1,030 hours as a pilot-in-command (PIC),
and 111 hours on the Q400.

Colgan’s flight records indicated that the first officer had accumulated 2,244 hours of
total flying time, including 774 hours in turbine airplanes and on the Q400.

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... AR1001.pdf






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