Do these plane partnerships work out?

[sailandfly]

How many of you are involved in plane sharing partnerships? Do these partnerships work out in the long run or do they fall apart ?

I see 1/3 partnerships going for $7,000 to $10,000 (older C150s) does this sound about right ?

Good or bad idea ??

[Shiny Side Up]

I would say that most partnerships work out, if only from the ones around here that have managed to survive having some pretty ornery people in them.

[CpnCrunch]

The problem I see is selling the share. Is it not easier to sell an entire plane than a third of it?

My preference is to buy the entire plane and rent it out to people who you trust not to break it.

Also, if it's even a mildly challenging plane, how can you be sure that one of the partners isn't going to forget the gear / land on the nosewheel / cook the cylinders? This isn't really an issue for a 150/172/PA28, but it would put me off getting into a partnership in a 182 or renting it out to anyone.

You might want to ask LousyFisherman about this - I believe he is a partner in a 150.

[iflyforpie]

Never been in one myself... but the best advice I got is to never have more than two people sharing a plane.

You get a third person in there... your annual and capital costs only go down by 17% rather than the 50% you got with one partner. You can get it down by another 12% by adding another person... but then you've got a committee rather than a partnership. Every time you try and schedule the plane, or plan maintenance, or try to save up for an upgrade or a mod.. you've got a Mexican Standoff between other partners.

The only time I've seen a partnership with four members really work was with the 172 we had at our field... one partner flew lots, one partner got his PPL then quit flying, one partner very rarely flew (once or twice a year) and one partner never flew at all. They all paid their bills and basically funded the one person's flying costs.

[Rookie50]

Never been in one myself... but the best advice I got is to never have more than two people sharing a plane.

You get a third person in there... your annual and capital costs only go down by 17% rather than the 50% you got with one partner. You can get it down by another 12% by adding another person... but then you've got a committee rather than a partnership. Every time you try and schedule the plane, or plan maintenance, or try to save up for an upgrade or a mod.. you've got a Mexican Standoff between other partners.

The only time I've seen a partnership with four members really work was with the 172 we had at our field... one partner flew lots, one partner got his PPL then quit flying, one partner very rarely flew (once or twice a year) and one partner never flew at all. They all paid their bills and basically funded the one person's flying costs.

I've heard that's common. Where a 2 place partnership can work is it allows 2 committed partners to upgrade to a twin, for example , and split the substantial fixed costs. (a friend of mine just did this).

[nbinont]

Currently in a partnership of 5 (and have been for a few years). Plane flies 100-200hr between annuals. Works well for us.

Whether it works or not really depends on the people in the partnership and their goals and expectations - make sure those match up.

A plane is a big "investment" and you'll be putting out a significant amount of money - not only for the initial cost, but maintenance, insurance, hangar, etc. Make sure you come up with a scheme to divide costs / reserves etc. There's lots of material on the net and in this forum on how to do that. Big ticket upgrade items (upgrades, etc) really rely on the group agreeing - and everyone needs to realize they will have to bend a bit to make the entire group happy.

Scheduling - communication is key. Our group uses a shared google calendar. If everyone puts their times in and keeps to it things work well. Every once in a while you'll get a conflict and need to sort it out. For those longer trips. make sure it plan it well in advance and discuss with everyone - realize you're asking them to plan in advance for not having the plane around. It also helps if the group has somewhat different schedules - early birds / nighthawks. I know our group does!

You'll get out of the partnership what you collectively put into it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have been in two partnerships. The first was myself and 3 others in a float plane. I left after a few years because the other partners refused to acknowledge the true cost of operating the airplane and 1 member refused to attain and maintain the skills to safely fly it. I became fed up with the constant whinging about money and sold my share.

I am currently in a partnership with another guy on a X Military trainer. He like myself, is a professional pilot, knows understands and is willing to pay the bills and is committed to operating the aircraft to a professional standard.

With 2 persons scheduling is almost never an issue and having all fixed costs cut by 50 % makes a huge difference as I would be reluctant to spend the money that out right ownership would entail.

My 05 cents

1) Partnerships work best at 2. Potential problems increase and savings decease with every additional partner.

2) Buy the best airplane you can find, it will be cheaper and less hassles in the long run

3) Get a lawyer to draw up a legal agreement that clearly defines the responsibilities and obligations of each partner, has a dispute resolution mechanism and clear language as to how and why the partnership can be dissolved.

[FenderManDan]

I am a one third partner and it works fine. The bonus is that it you fly 100% and pay for your share percentage.

[LousyFisherman]

For a partnership to work out there has to be general agreement on acceptable use, finances and reserves, as well as maintenance. You must have a formal partnership agreement!! Also, a plane is not an investment, it is an expense.

Our partnership of 10 just about broke up over the replacement of our old 150 (BZX) with a new one HFR. Due to the size of the group and the differing requirements there were a number of emotional discussions. Yet in the end we end up with a much better result than an individual could achieve due to the distribution of work. A short synopsis:

Argument over fix engine/new plane. Decision new engine not worth it.
Owner 1: I have an offer for 4K for BZX
Owner 2: Not enough.
Owner 1: Well you do better
Owner 2: I have an offer for 6K for BZX
Owner 1: (1 week later) I am on the way to the bank with 6K in my pocket
Owner 3: Lets buy this 150 for 27K
Owner 4: No way am I accepting a cash call for 2K for a 2 seater in Okotoks
Owner 4: Lets buy this 4 seater for $32K
Owner 5: I just can't afford a 2K cash call for any plane
Owner 7: Hey there's a 150 in Van for stupidly cheap money

Then we had AME issues before we found a good one, then how do we get it back from Van? I don't believe the result the group ended up with could be achieved by a single individual.

Shares are very easy to sell. Where else do you get access to your own plane for $4K? People mention scheduling problems, in my 6 years I have only had 1 conflict and that was when I tried to book the night before on impulse, Every year I take the plane on a 7-10 day trip without anyone complaining.

Monthly billings should cover all fixed costs, annual, insurance, tie down etc. Operating billings should cover all operating expenses, oil, maintenance etc. Reserve billings should be at least if not greater than operating billings, The objective is once the engine is at TBO you have enough in reserves to buy a new plane.

The end result was we ended up with a sweetheart of a deal, had a cash call of $500/owner and now have a really nice plane with a cash reserve of $4.5K instead of a (used to be) good but worn out plane with a cash reserve of $21K.

One of the advantages of a large group is that the attitudes are very difficult to change. Since 6 (at least) of us agree on maintenance and finances it is almost impossible for a new partner to change the basic principles/beliefs of the group.

Our large group works because we run an entry level plane. In the next couple of years I will be looking at buying a float pIane or finding a partnership. I would not consider a large partnership for a float plane, but I would certainly consider a 2-3 person partnership assuming agreement on use, maintenance and finances can be agreed.

If it is your first plane, I would suggest joining a partnership just for the experience and knowledge you will gain.

I would say that most partnerships work out, if only from the ones around here that have managed to survive having some pretty ornery people in them.

Hey, ours has survived because we have some pretty ornery people in it Historically I believe the partnership is 12 years old and we have only a single original member. On average I would say 2 shares per year change hands.

Please note that, though I disagree with the opinions on size of the partnership I do agree with the conditions required for a partnership to be successful. MAINTENANCE, FINANCES, USE, FORMAL AGREEMENT.

YMMV
LF

[turkeycannon]

And how does one find a partnership? I very occasionally see them advertised (on here and the usual marketplace sites), but I get the impression they're mainly word-of-mouth. If you only really know your (ex) instructor, what's the best way to sniff out a good partnership (preferably in something less common like a taildragger)?

[nbinont]

Really depends on where you are located?

1. Visit nearby airports and look for and adds on the message boards. You might talk to the businesses on the field if they know of anyone (maintenance, FBO, etc),
2. Look for postings here, on websites selling planes, or in aviation classifiedes (such as on copa plane trade), or
3. Find people and setup your own partnership - though that's a big undertaking.

[Shiny Side Up]

Hey, ours has survived because we have some pretty ornery people in it Historically I believe the partnership is 12 years old and we have only a single original member. On average I would say 2 shares per year change hands.

Well that's it, if a partnership can withstand having Crazy Larry as a member, I'm sure most other people will do just fine. That said though, yours wasn't the only partnership I was thinking of. There's at least six other partnerships between here and High River, and probably a few I don't know about. Incidentally as I recall, the posters JAHinYYC and Jetstream are both members of partnerships.

[AirFrame]

Check out AirShare. That's where a larger group (like 10-30 people) owns multiple aircraft, and each owner owns a share in the AirShare organization. You can book any one of the aircraft to fly. I think there are AirShare groups in many regions in Canada now.

[ahramin]

The thing about AirShare and the like is that they are in the aircraft rental business and expect to make a good profit. The business model is that instead of using their money to buy airplanes and rent them out, they use your money to buy the airplanes and then rent them out to you. You would think that this would mean you get a good deal on the operating costs, but in actual fact the "good deal" you are getting is in the lower capital and depreciation costs. It's great if you want to fly a brand new SR22, can afford high operating costs but don't have the cash or credit to buy the airplane. Most people I know who are looking for partnerships can afford the cost of buying the airplane outright, but want to get the operating costs down to something they can manage.

[iflyforpie]

Sounds like the vacation time share some boiler-room operation tried to sell me years ago....