Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
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Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
Maybe this was a good save after the fact, but flying into FRDZ in the first place, in a Caravan no less, I would chalk that up to very poor decision making. I don't know what was in the forecast at the time he took off, but the headline might be more accurately written "Officials investigating after pilot flies into known icing hazard, forced to carry out emergency landing."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/air ... -1.2844168
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/air ... -1.2844168
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
Then don't comment. There was no forecast of freezing precip until afterwards.I don't know what was in the forecast at the time he took off
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Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
Exactly. That's a dirtbag statement to make, especially when making it based on what you read on CBC.Rudy wrote:Then don't comment. There was no forecast of freezing precip until afterwards.I don't know what was in the forecast at the time he took off
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
I don't know all the details but at least he had the head on his shoulders to not to "save it" leading to a complete stall / spin and he just put it down on the lake safe
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
Really??? WTF? Real heroes don't go pushing weather. He pushed, got caught and LUCKILY managed to save the a/c and all aboard. Had he crashed, he and them would be just another dirty statistic. Absolutely infuriating to read this story.
GOOD JOB!!!!
GOOD JOB!!!!
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
While it may not have been forecast at the time, wouldn't the giant Trowal on the 12z GFA be a hint as to what may be lurking?
I guess I should write something here.
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Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
We don't know how he got into the ice.
We do know that he was sharper than several other 'van pilots in similar conditions who did not survive.
We do know that he was sharper than several other 'van pilots in similar conditions who did not survive.
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
Really?RatherBeFlying wrote:We don't know how he got into the ice.
I guess I should write something here.
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Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
All though i congratulate the pilot for landing safely i am not sure i would call him a Hero. There are things that went terribly wrong here and one was flying in the weather he did. I think landing on that lake this time of year was straight luck that its not hanging thru the ice by its wings, and they are not recovering bodies trapped inside. The city of yellowknife web site shows 6 to 9.5" of ice around Yellowknife. I am not sure how that thing didn't drop into the lake.
This guy could have went from Hero to Zero in 1 second flat. It appears transport is tacking this series sending up a team of investigators when there were no injuries let alone fatalities.
This guy could have went from Hero to Zero in 1 second flat. It appears transport is tacking this series sending up a team of investigators when there were no injuries let alone fatalities.
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
I put him right up there with the hero that deadsticked a navajo onto a Winnipeg street.
Hero to zero is right. He was lucky...and so were the poor unsuspected pax who trusted his judgement
Hero to zero is right. He was lucky...and so were the poor unsuspected pax who trusted his judgement
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
In regards to the forecast, the news article mentions a freezing drizzle warning was in effect for the Yellowknife area.
While this was an avoidable scenario I personally like the message that is being delivered about recognizing an emergency situation and dealing with it while still able to. I know I've mentioned the boiling frog before and I will mention it again. As a situation degrades we can feel we are still maintaining a level of control until we cross the line and it's too late. So like the frog, you gotta be able to take action while you're still able before you're in some hot water (or in this case freezing rain!)
While this was an avoidable scenario I personally like the message that is being delivered about recognizing an emergency situation and dealing with it while still able to. I know I've mentioned the boiling frog before and I will mention it again. As a situation degrades we can feel we are still maintaining a level of control until we cross the line and it's too late. So like the frog, you gotta be able to take action while you're still able before you're in some hot water (or in this case freezing rain!)
"He did something that very few pilots do in equivalent circumstances: he took the opportunity to land the aircraft while it was still flyable, and he deserves some sort of medal for so doing.
"At least on the last part of his action, he's a hero."
My ambition is to live forever - so far, so good!
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
Considering he called act descending through 2100', (about 1500agl) and still not able to maintain altitude, I'm not sure this was some sort of heroic 'ok, I'm going to land on a lake, rather than holding alt until I stall', more of a 'shit I can't hold any alt, I have to do a forced approach...' And I hope more than "very few" people would have done the same thing in that situation...? Good to know if I ever run out of fuel and land on a hwy, I'll be a hero...
I guess I should write something here.
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
Someone posted the audio of YZF tower before this fellow's takeoff and leading up to the accident. He was given two pireps, one from a First Air ATR and one from the Jazz -8. Both had departed within 15 minutes of the Tindi 208, and both reported rime ice from the cloud bottom (1500 agl IIRC) up to 15 or 16000 feet. The First Air pilot called it "significant" ice. I also believe a company airplane reported severe ice in the descent into Yellowknife, but I'd have to re-listen to the audio. The Tindi pilot basically stated that he was going to "check it out".
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
No. There were 2 DA flights, the one you are talking about was another aircraft entirely.TomC wrote:Someone posted the audio of YZF tower before this fellow's takeoff and leading up to the accident. He was given two pireps, one from a First Air ATR and one from the Jazz -8. Both had departed within 15 minutes of the Tindi 208, and both reported rime ice from the cloud bottom (1500 agl IIRC) up to 15 or 16000 feet. The First Air pilot called it "significant" ice. I also believe a company airplane reported severe ice in the descent into Yellowknife, but I'd have to re-listen to the audio. The Tindi pilot basically stated that he was going to "check it out".
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
If you listen to the 1330-1400 clip, all you here is him getting a clearence, taking off, and jazz de icing. There weren't any reports handed to him by radio, as far as I heard.
I guess I should write something here.
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
Exactly. Discovery 223 got his clearance and departed before the tower was open. Discovery 604 (A DHC7 I think?) later departed and they were given the icing pirep. The accident pilot was not given any pirep before he departed for Fort Simpson.Maynard wrote:If you listen to the 1330-1400 clip, all you here is him getting a clearence, taking off, and jazz de icing. There weren't any reports handed to him by radio, as far as I heard.
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
Do I understand you all correctly?
If no one tells you there are icing conditions, then when the plane starts to ice up, you dont turn around...you just plow through it ?
He made the best of a bad situation...bud hero he is not.
If no one tells you there are icing conditions, then when the plane starts to ice up, you dont turn around...you just plow through it ?
He made the best of a bad situation...bud hero he is not.
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
I just made a correction to someone that said he received icing reports before he took off. If I only looked at the taf that morning, before it was amended, it didn't look too bad, but the GFA painted a different picture. Fzdz at -10 or lower is not that common...Im not in any way defending the decisions he made to take off, as you'll note in my earlier posts.
I guess I should write something here.
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Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
I get that you're trying to be as obnoxious as possible to prove a point, but you do understand that he did indeed turn around, right?trey kule wrote:Do I understand you all correctly?
If no one tells you there are icing conditions, then when the plane starts to ice up, you dont turn around...you just plow through it ?
He took off when there was no forecast of freezing drizzle, got into ice and turned around.
Comparing this to the fatal, fuel starvation induced Navajo accident in Winnipeg is more than a little bit of a stretch.
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
So is it a good idea to blast off when the forecast says the icing will be beyond the certified capability of your aircraft (as it appears to be in this case)?shimmydampner wrote: I get that you're trying to be as obnoxious as possible to prove a point, but you do understand that he did indeed turn around, right?
He took off when there was no forecast of freezing drizzle, got into ice and turned around.
Comparing this to the fatal, fuel starvation induced Navajo accident in Winnipeg is more than a little bit of a stretch.
Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
I'm going to stick with the unpopular opinion that gives this Pilot the benefit of the doubt on what information was available to him. Perhaps he made an educated decision to depart and then continued to make hard decisions in an emergency and managed to keep everyone alive.
Its very easy to pick these things apart after the fact but let's not forget that we have all been there when the weather is near our limits but still within something we feel is acceptable. This is a difficult time of the year to be flying and in my opinion especially in the 703 market. While choosing not to fly is an option, we don't do this job to not fly, we do it to the best of our ability and I have a hard time believing with the quality of Pilots that Air Tindi has that they would be choosing to push the limits into the most dangerous situation and beyond what is generously known as a weakness to the Caravan. Don't think you're better then him, he got caught and made it out alive. Here is a perfect eye opener to all those discussions going on around here in regards to winter flying and safety.
Its very easy to pick these things apart after the fact but let's not forget that we have all been there when the weather is near our limits but still within something we feel is acceptable. This is a difficult time of the year to be flying and in my opinion especially in the 703 market. While choosing not to fly is an option, we don't do this job to not fly, we do it to the best of our ability and I have a hard time believing with the quality of Pilots that Air Tindi has that they would be choosing to push the limits into the most dangerous situation and beyond what is generously known as a weakness to the Caravan. Don't think you're better then him, he got caught and made it out alive. Here is a perfect eye opener to all those discussions going on around here in regards to winter flying and safety.
My ambition is to live forever - so far, so good!
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Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
CBC is really getting into this "trial by media" bullshit lately. It's pissing me off. Takes 2 days for them to show a single pic of the snowstorm of the century in Buffalo but we get round the clock coverage of burning down Bill Cosby. The Yukraine, Isreal, Ebola, and many others have dropped off the radar but discrediting a radio DJ is the most important thing in the world all of a sudden? Those budget cuts have forced them to take on a Fox news esque approach to sensationalisation of the story...
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Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
This is just another example of 703 rules and philosophy gone wrong -- everything is dumped on the pilot's shoulders which increases the possibility of something going sideways -- you have to ask yourself if this would have happened if they were using level 2 dispatch system -- an extra set of eyes and someone who is paid to watch and read the wx could have prevented this -- I for one think there needs to be some major changes in how 703 operates and even 704 and 705 for those carriers who operate under self dispatch system --
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Re: Air Tindi Pilot "Hero" for Flying into FRDZ
This comes right back to the corporate culture of this and other organizations.
The leadership of the company has changed since the CFIT accident that killed the hydro worker, but on the surface, this seems like an Operational Control (or lack of it) issue.
An expression comes to mind "A dead fish rots from the head."
The leadership of the company has changed since the CFIT accident that killed the hydro worker, but on the surface, this seems like an Operational Control (or lack of it) issue.
An expression comes to mind "A dead fish rots from the head."
Last edited by single_swine_herder on Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.