Last morning I flew with my instructor and something interesting happened. There's a scattered layer (my guess) of cloud a few hundred feet above us while we were cruising to the practice area. All of a sudden my instructor yelled "Reduce power and start descending, now!" So I did. He pointed to the left wing and said "look there's a thin layer of ice". I looked hard but didn't see anything... How can we encounter icing in clear air, out of cloud?
In the afternoon another student at the airport who's already licensed offered me the right seat on his xcountry. Right after we touched down at our destination, the airplane veered to the right off the runway I've never seen anything like this and kept playing it in my head in slow motion... I don't want to ask instructors at our school and put that student into trouble... So what could be the cause of this incident? Obviously he didn't do it intentionally.
There's a few reasons for the plane to veer off the runway to one direction. One could be a blown tire (even though you guys would have noticed that), a strong crosswind without proper control inputs or issues with the brakes. I would assume the latter. It could be possible that you guys taxied through water at your departure airport. In the air and in freezing temperature the water coating the brakes could freeze which could lead to the brakes or at least one of them being inoperative. Upon landing and applying brake pressure, the right brake might have been working while the left one was frozen thus forcing the plane into one direction off the runway.
Not having been on the flight and without any further details, that would be my guess. With the temperature hovering around 0°C in big parts of the country these days it's quite possible for that to happen.
fxyz wrote:LI don't want to ask instructors at our school and put that student into trouble... So what could be the cause of this incident? Obviously he didn't do it intentionally.
PLEASE rethink this mentality. It's a huge problem with students and people new to aviation. I don't know what school you're at, but both yourself and the other pilot need to bring it the CFI/instructor and ask questions. Maybe you have an SMS in place? Keeping quiet about incidents, whether it's your fault or not, is the worst thing you can do. Nobody will get into trouble, hopefully quite the opposite if management is worth anything. In aviation progress is often made by mistakes, it's better if they're learnt from minor ones.
MIQ wrote: It could be possible that you guys taxied through water at your departure airport.
Right it could be. Now I think about it, we did taxi through water.
DanWEC wrote:PLEASE rethink this mentality.
I do want to ask my instructors but I don't want to be the one who runs to the CFI and tells everything. Now I don't know if the other student told his instructor or not... It's only fair that he's the one telling the story first because he is the pilot.
fxyz wrote:Last morning I flew with my instructor and something interesting happened. There's a scattered layer (my guess) of cloud a few hundred feet above us while we were cruising to the practice area. All of a sudden my instructor yelled "Reduce power and start descending, now!" So I did. He pointed to the left wing and said "look there's a thin layer of ice". I looked hard but didn't see anything... How can we encounter icing in clear air, out of cloud?
Two possibilities. Most likely is that you were actually scudding through the bottom of the cloud layer, lots of people don't realise how close they are to clouds in my experience, and especially when they're near the bottom of the layer, they can't see where the horizon is at accurately and have a tendency to be constantly flying in a slight climb. Less likely, but still possible, was that your instructor was really paranoid about getting into icing, has never actually seen ice on the wings of a plane, so was imagining things, but after reading the GFA or other forecasts was all keyed up about the possibility. Not sure why he would yell about it. Probably was the most exciting thing that happened to him that day and made for a good story with the other instructors.
In the afternoon another student at the airport who's already licensed offered me the right seat on his xcountry. Right after we touched down at our destination, the airplane veered to the right off the runway I've never seen anything like this and kept playing it in my head in slow motion... I don't want to ask instructors at our school and put that student into trouble... So what could be the cause of this incident? Obviously he didn't do it intentionally.
99% probability that it was simply his bad piloting. Happens way more than people think, judging by the tracks I always find on the off sides of runways. While it seems to be standard practice that no one says boo about it. I'd encourage you to bring it up to the school - or more specifically, encourage you to encourage the offender to fess up. I'm less mad if people fess up to screwing up so the issue can be adressed. It pisses me off to no end when people do stuff like this and don't say nothing so you can find a mysterious problem later on. Especially in the off 1% chance there was actually something wrong with the plane.
photofly wrote:Pound to a penny someone didn't roll the ailerons into the wind during, or after touchdown.
I remember now! Yesterday I actually saw him turned aileron away from the wind... Thought he was trying to steer the plane with aileron.
Shiny Side Up wrote:lots of people don't realise how close they are to clouds in my experience, and especially when they're near the bottom of the layer, they can't see where the horizon is at accurately and have a tendency to be constantly flying in a slight climb.
Sounds interesting. The clouds looked pretty far away at the time. I'll pay more attention to that next time.
photofly wrote:Pound to a penny someone didn't roll the ailerons into the wind during, or after touchdown.
I remember now! Yesterday I actually saw him turned aileron away from the wind... Thought he was trying to steer the plane with aileron.
There you go, a perfect example of what a transparent line of communication can solve. Maybe nothing wrong with the plane, but if the pilot is simply mistaken on how to correctly apply x-wind inputs, he could be a time bomb. It's not tattling, and don't necessarily "run to the CFI". (I mentioned CFI or instructor because I don't know the size or structure of your school.) If you can't mention it diplomatically to someone, you aren't doing anyone any favors. It's something the instructor should be very much aware of, (Hell, could even be bad training, in which case the CFI should know). Not saying you should act all sanctimonious, but you could be preventing an even worse incident at some point.
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Last edited by DanWEC on Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DanWEC wrote:if the pilot is simply mistaken on how to correctly apply x-wind inputs, he could be a time bomb.
I agree. He should at least ask for help from his instructor,
CpnCrunch wrote:Well at least you got a practical demonstration of adverse yaw, and why you should be putting the aileron into wind (and not steering with the wheel
Absolutely! Now I understand why my instructor was so paranoid about xwind input while taxiing - guess they work the same way.
Check the prop, if there is any green discolouration, that engine has to be torn down. That is why so many schools refuse to allow students to go to grass fields, if the prop gets greened up (even if it just touched some high grass - no harm no foul), you have to treat it like a prop strike...
7ECA wrote:Check the prop, if there is any green discolouration, that engine has to be torn down. That is why so many schools refuse to allow students to go to grass fields, if the prop gets greened up (even if it just touched some high grass - no harm no foul), you have to treat it like a prop strike...
What?! I never thought it's so serious... So if the prop's green, the engine is not safe any more?
I don't think we hit anything but better have the school's mechanic check it out to be safe.
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Last edited by fxyz on Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
7ECA wrote:Check the prop, if there is any green discolouration, that engine has to be torn down. That is why so many schools refuse to allow students to go to grass fields, if the prop gets greened up (even if it just touched some high grass - no harm no foul), you have to treat it like a prop strike...
Thats got to be one of the most rediculous things I have read on this forum.
Lots of good learning experiences here. I'll pose another one:
What if there is a problem with that airplane. For the sake of argument lets say its a mechanical problem with the brakes that wasn't ice related. You guys didn't tell anyone and no one has inspected the airplane. You have signed off that the aircraft was serviceable when you last flew it when you sign the log book. The next pilot to fly that airplane is now unknowingly flying an airplane that is not airworthy. The best case scenario is he/she catches the maintenance flaw before they are airborne,cancels the flight and writes the snag in the book. The worst case scenario is this person veers off the runway, like you have already done, except this time the wing digs in, the plane rolls over and the pilot and/or passenger is killed.
Human flight is a beautiful freedom that we are extremely fortunate to participate in. Part of holding that privilege is putting aside ego, and personal feelings for the higher responsibility of safety. It's your duty to all of your fellow aviators to report these kinds of incidents. I suggest you ask your friend if he/she reported it to the appropriate people. If they have not, tell them if they won't report it you will be forced to do it. Put the ball in their court and let them decide.
These are all growing pains that every budding pilot will come up against in some form. Incidents and accidents do happen, make sure everyone learns from them!
Given the choice between green pilot ineptitude, and a brake issue - it's the pilot, every time. On the rare occasion it is a brake issue, the problem will be easily fixed by GETTING THE GOD-DAMN PILOT TO TAKE HIS TOES OFF THE BRAKES WHILE LANDING THE PLANE.
Goodness me I'm crabby tonight.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Is it possible that the wind was so strong that the airplane reached its limit? How much xwind can a 150 take before it always veer off the runway even with xwind input and a competent pilot?
I reached the limit of a very empty C172 at close to 30 knots direct crosswind from the right with proper inputs. It was almost impossible to keep it on the taxiway (at slow speed).
7ECA wrote:Check the prop, if there is any green discolouration, that engine has to be torn down. That is why so many schools refuse to allow students to go to grass fields, if the prop gets greened up (even if it just touched some high grass - no harm no foul), you have to treat it like a prop strike...
Have had a prop touch high grass more than once. No teardown was done nor was one necessary.
fxyz wrote:Is it possible that the wind was so strong that the airplane reached its limit? How much xwind can a 150 take before it always veer off the runway even with xwind input and a competent pilot?
What was the crosswind at the time? If your airport has METARs you can find old ones at:
I've never seen anything like this and kept playing it in my head in slow motion... I don't want to ask instructors at our school and put that student into trouble... So what could be the cause of this incident? Obviously he didn't do it intentionally.
