So my dad is going to be retiring later this year and he wants to finally take up flying. Because he's been so supportive of my interest in aviation since I was just a couple years old, my plan is to renew my instructor rating (I lapsed a couple years ago as a Class 2 and I presently deal heavily with training for the 703 carrier I'm with) and teach him myself. Finding an airplane to use for training and beyond won't be a problem.

My (our) dilemma is this: what level of qualification should we shoot for? My initial thought had been to go for his UL permit as his main interest is just keeping close to home in Cubs and the like but on looking it up the Rec permit doesn't look like much more and a PPL seems to be barely more effort than a Rec permit. The thing is, I also don't want it to be an ongoing project that never gets finished.

What are your thoughts on those levels of licenses/permits, what it takes to achieve them, and what you get out of it?

I would say, aim for the Pilot Permit - Recreational, initially.

If it turns out that he likes the idea of flying but isn't really interested in doing it by himself, then he can stop after a couple of solo flights. That's a good milestone for someone to be able to say to themselves "I can take off, fly, and land an airplane".

By that stage it should be quite obvious if he's sufficiently motivated to reach an assessed standard of flying, study for, take and pass a TC-invigilated ground exam, and start to treat flying as a means of transport by flying cross country. If so, a PP-R should be easily within reach.

Once that is in sight it should be very obvious if he's got the motivation to go a little bit further and get a PPL - an "internationally recognized" qualification.

I'm afraid I don't know much about the UL permit, but the solo->PP-R->PPL path has honourable "outs" at different points.

Another thing to bear in mind (I can have no idea if this might apply in your family, of course) but simply remaining as a perennial student means he has a joint activity with you. Getting a licence, and to some extent ending the lessons at that point, doesn't have to be a goal at all.

As much as it pains me to say it, I'd largely agree with photofly. If you love your father, I'd steer him away from the UPP. If you're going to do the teaching the path to a RPP isn't a tough one, and its easy enough to turn training to a RPP into training for a PPL should your paths lead you there. Or as above there are honorable "outs" to the process as well.

I think you guys are right on the PP-R. In the past I had looked down on it as an out for guys who were two lazy to learn navigation and rate one turns but for what he wants I think it could be a really good fit. I'll have to read up some more and talk to him about it.

My reasoning on the UPP was that it's always looked to me like you get up to the PPL solo standard then get signed off to continue unsupervised. For a (responsible) guy doing evening flights in a Champ, that's probably sufficient but a PP-R also let's you carry a passenger and fly a slightly bigger plane.

As for having an end goal, if we can we will. Going to the airport has always been a social thing for us and I don't expect that to change. Some of the most enjoyable flying has been during those couple hours that come after the BBQ beside the hangar but before the sun sets, it's just that next year we'll be able to take two Cubs instead of one.

PPL. He can do everything he wants to that the other licenses allow, then if he feels like it he can also take passengers anywhere he wants to go.

I'm a strong supporter of starting with the PPL in mind, but structuring the training such that you could make a left turn when you hit the RPP requirements and stop there if you're really hating it but don't want to stop until you've achieved something.

Personally I see little value in the RPP overall. If you're getting into flying because you love flying, it doesn't matter whether it takes 25 hours or 45 hours to get a piece of paper that says you can go solo. The extra time to get the PPL is, after all, flying time. Enjoy it! And have a more useful license when you're done.

As a Class 2 myself, I'm also a fan of the PPL idea, for the same reasons stated already. There's much more freedom with a PPL

RPP to start but whatever you do, don't try teaching your family. Yes it's cheaper but the student/instructor dynamic is ruined and may lead to unnecessary tensions.

I always swayed away from the pointless RPP

Cessna driver wrote:I always swayed away from the pointless RPP

How is it pointless? In my experience, most of the people bashing their heads working on a PPL will be served just as well with an RPP. While a lot of pilots talk a big game, the fact of the matter is that many aren't ever going to have more than one passenger, aren't going to be cruising around for more than an hour or two and probably staying within a 100 miles of their home airport for most of their flying. They're limited not by the license, but by cost, time and interest. For hobby pilots its a great way to get in, have less money spent on training so you can get out there seeking those $100 hamburgers, and if one finds that you're always wishing you could do more, then its easy to upgrade to the PPL. Which one might ad, if one has been doing a reasonable amount of flying and staying on your game, should be a walk in the park.

The only place where I feel the RPP is "pointless" is if one is looking to get your CPL, then don't bother with it as a step since all that does is cost you more money. But everyone ain't flying to get into an airliner.

Shiny Side Up wrote:As much as it pains me to say it, I'd largely agree with photofly.

Its only February and I think that is post of the year on the new, serious, unfunny AVCANADA.

I agree with both of them too... ....recreational flying is what he is looking at doing... why go whole hog getting the increasingly bloated PPL with practically no difference in grass-roots flying other than the post-training gas money it liberates from your wallet?

lownslow wrote:his main interest is just keeping close to home in Cubs and the like

So no need for multiple pax, ratings or flying in the US. This says RPP. The bonus is needing only a class 4 medical. If he wants/needs the PPL at a later date, it will be a cheap upgrade with you teaching him for free.

iflyforpie wrote:why go whole hog getting the increasingly bloated PPL with practically no difference in grass-roots flying other than the post-training gas money it liberates from your wallet?

Unless you're going to stop flying on the day you get your RPP, chances are you're going to be paying for the next 30 hours of gas anyway. So the only cost difference getting a PPL over an RPP is in the instructor's time for 15-20 hours.

You're getting the license because you like flying, why not get something out of that 30 hours rather than *just* airtime?

In my observation, the people getting RPP's around here are former PPL holders who are concerned they'll fail their next medical, or incoming pilots who think they might fail a real medical. I hope i'm not the only one who finds that disconcerting.

That's why I put the 'post training' qualifier in front of it.

I don't know about you or this person... but I couldn't wait to stop paying for training (and the rental or direct costs) and start doing my own thing in the air with people I liked.

I guess I do have a couple people who rent from me (fully licensed) who would rather go dual than solo.... but to me, it was like when I got my driver's license and my first car... it was freedom!

AirFrame wrote:
In my observation, the people getting RPP's around here are former PPL holders who are concerned they'll fail their next medical, or incoming pilots who think they might fail a real medical. I hope i'm not the only one who finds that disconcerting.

Of many things, pilots being incapacitated while flying is a low concern. We're talking about a group of people who on average in this country fly less than 35 hours a year. Statistically speaking, if you were prone to say having a heart attack, that's a .3% chance that its going to happen while you're flying. Hardly matters, way more likely for it to happen while you're driving to the airport. Not something that should keep one up at night.

What's more concerning though, is how many people don't make it through flight training, at least a half, by the numbers I see, and one wonders if they shot for the RPP instead of the PPL they might at least have gotten the satisfaction of a paper in hand and be still active in the aviation community. Personally, if I didn't fly for a living, and knowing what I know now, if I was to want to fly recreational, I'd go for the RPP. When I fly for fun, or my own ends I'm a fair weather flyer. Its nice VFR and I have no interests plowing long distance IFR, Westjet does that better. Rarely do I have more than one passenger, if any. Now a days $2000-$3000 extra bucks in my wallet is a lot of avgas money. If more people were more practical when it comes to their aviation dreams, they'd have RPPs.

I've done a reasonable amount of them over the years. Most have been happy with the route, some have upgraded, some haven't. I'll admit that I don't like when people don't upgrade to the PPL when they do start pushing the boundaries of what the RPP is good for. There's a fair amount of dingbats who should be made to take the extra training to be PPLs ( a guy I know with an UPP who flies a Mooney comes to mind) , but an equal amount of PPL holders that someone should have did a better job of convincing them to have gone the RPP route too. At least PPL holders who should stick to the restrictions of the RPP.

iflyforpie wrote:That's why I put the 'post training' qualifier in front of it.

I don't know about you or this person... but I couldn't wait to stop paying for training (and the rental or direct costs) and start doing my own thing in the air with people I liked.

I guess I do have a couple people who rent from me (fully licensed) who would rather go dual than solo.... but to me, it was like when I got my driver's license and my first car... it was freedom!

I know! I could never wait to go on my own once I got that license.

RPP - class 4 medical
PPL - class 3 medical
Until solo both are exactly the same at the start, by then he should have a good idea if he wants to go RPP or PPL. The only real advantage for him is additional pax should he want more or being able to cross into the USA.

As PF, SSU and some other venerable members mentioned above, based on what you said he plans to do, a Rec Permit (PP-R) is just what the doctor ordered. The Class 4 (PP-R) is also going to be pretty straight-forward to get through your family doctor rather than having to do a complete medical with an aviation doctor for a Class 3 (PPL). I wouldn't bother with a PPL for someone who is only going to fly 2 place aircraft in good VFR weather. You can always help him upgrade later if he so desires...

I agree 100%, after the input here and talking to a few good instructors I think we're going to go ahead with the rec permit. I guess next up I have to get my instructor rating renewed.

Good luck! Hope you have a great time with teaching your dad to fly! The best part will be when you let your dad go first solo, you get to feel exactly the same thing he must have felt the day you "left the nest"!