Gear up landing possible prevention

[pelmet]

Training flights seem to be a high risk area. Perhaps the pilots can request to the tower to revert back to the "check gear down" reminder we used to get with the landing clearance for training flights.

Any thoughts on that idea?

Occurrence Summary:
A Beech 200 (registration C-GBBS, operated by AirExpress Ontario Inc.) was being flown in the
Oshawa area for flight training purposes. During a flapless landing on runway 12 at Oshawa
(CYOO), the flight crew forgot to lower the landing gear. The propellers and a portion of the
underside fuselage touched the runway surface before an overshoot was performed. The aircraft
landed safely during a subsequent landing. There were no injuries to the two occupants.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

How do you prevent pilots from going around after a gear up runway contact with the airplane and the props?

[Illya Kuryakin]

Too many liability issues there Pelmet. That's why they don't do it anymore.
To take the airplane back in the air after the props contact the runway? Don't get me started on that one.
A flapless landing is an abnormal situation (but, not all that abnormal) .....never mind. There's obviously no cure.
Illya

[ant_321]

They still make the gear down call in CYYR.

[Illya Kuryakin]

They still make the gear down call in CYYR.

I'm sure it's not in their MANOPS.
Illya

[Chuck Finley]

They still make the gear down call in CYYR.

Military airports make that call.

You'd think that if you made it far enough in your career to be in command of a king air you'd know better not to take an airplane back in the air after the props and fuselage touch the ground.

Last thing we need is another airplane breaking up in the air this week.

GOOD JOB TARD!!!!

[esp803]

GOOD JOB TARD!!!!

Really?

The crew screwed up, twice. Gear didn't go down, and after they touched the ground they went around. Simple as that, they made two very dumb mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes, well everybody except most of the people on this forum. I've laid a bike over because I thought I saw a car moving into the intersection on a dirt road (it was parked), Hit the front brake a little hard... I made a mistake, my bike got damaged. It was my fault, I screwed up, I learned. Illya don't take this as me condoning it as okay, it was a mistake and those (mistakes) happen to most of us.

E

[DonutHole]

They still make the gear down call in CYYR.

Military airports make that call.

You'd think that if you made it far enough in your career to be in command of a king air you'd know better not to take an airplane back in the air after the props and fuselage touch the ground.

Last thing we need is another airplane breaking up in the air this week.

GOOD JOB TARD!!!!

You would think so but I watched a military king air ding bot props doing a fear up landing then execute a go around.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Most pilots would go around after hitting the runway with the gear up?

Really?

[Chuck Finley]

GOOD JOB TARD!!!!

Really?

The crew screwed up, twice. Gear didn't go down, and after they touched the ground they went around. Simple as that, they made two very dumb mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes, well everybody except most of the people on this forum. I've laid a bike over because I thought I saw a car moving into the intersection on a dirt road (it was parked), Hit the front brake a little hard... I made a mistake, my bike got damaged. It was my fault, I screwed up, I learned. Illya don't take this as me condoning it as okay, it was a mistake and those (mistakes) happen to most of us.

E

So was this a valuable leaning experience?

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Forgetting to put the gear down is one issue, especially on a training flight.

Going around after airplane and prop contact with the ground is something else, had the airplane crashed in a built up area and killed people I would suggest you are now into criminal negligence.

[SuperchargedRS]

Most pilots would go around after hitting the runway with the gear up?

Really?

Just a matter of discretion and individual circumstance.

Yes, yes they would.

Q tipping two props and maybe a little scratched paint beats a full blown pancake.

I've seen it done before, small single engine, just ended up being new prop blades, engine was checked out, all to spec, didn't even scratch the paint. Option B wouldn't have been quite a pretty or as cheap.

Of course, best bet is to do your flows, follow up with the checklist and avoid the whole mess.

[JayVee]

I'm no psychologist, but before this guy is condemned, I would imagine it could possibly be an automatic "OH FUKK!" reaction to jam the powers forward. In a brief moment you may know if the airplane is going to fly or if it's going to shake itself apart.
It could work, as in this case and another PC-12 in YXL years ago, or it could end badly. Or really badly.

[Donald]

Most pilots would go around after hitting the runway with the gear up?

Really?

It's a transport approved procedure, why not?


http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 0h0007.asp

[looproll]

I have a crazy idea: teach students to check the gear FROM DAY 1. It may seem silly to teach this in a fixed gear trainer, but remember primacy? It gets them thinking about it and it's ingrained when they progress to a more complex aircraft.

[Illya Kuryakin]

Most pilots would go around after hitting the runway with the gear up?

Really?

Just a matter of discretion and individual circumstance.

Yes, yes they would.

Q tipping two props and maybe a little scratched paint beats a full blown pancake.

I've seen it done before, small single engine, just ended up being new prop blades, engine was checked out, all to spec, didn't even scratch the paint. Option B wouldn't have been quite a pretty or as cheap.
.

After "Q tipping the props and maybe a little scratched paint....", how do you know your aircraft isn't mortally wounded? You're qualified to make that call? To continue back into the air, over houses, schools and who knows what? I'm not. Neither are you.
Give your head a shake.
Illya

[Meatservo]

Automatically blow the gear down on a nitrogen charge when the rad. alt hits 50 feet with the gear still up. Heck, make it twenty if you're really that into buzz jobs.

[awitzke]

Although it's not something that prevents gear up landings, the phrase "gear down to go down" was hammered in my head since day one. It helps. Then the MP3's. Mixture, props, 3 green, one in the mirror. Then you do it again.

[iflyforpie]

I'll chime in with the opinion of a pilot who has done both within 15 or so hours of each other.

First time.. scraped the props and some antennas... did the go around.. and was very concerned about the vibration and lack of power.

Second time... decided to keep it on the ground.. plane was a write-off.

Better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than the other way around.... insurance pays for the aircraft.. and the likelihood of a fatal accident is going to be more likely taking a very unairworthy aircraft back into the pattern vs riding out an otherwise controlled and normal landing. The only time I might consider going around would be in a high performance aircraft with a canopy where I could get trapped if it overturned...

For prevention... wouldn't have helped the guy the second time... uncontrolled airport. Put the gear down... I visually check three times even on fixed gear planes. And part of your emergency checks should be to also ensure normal items are completed.

[esp803]

So was this a valuable leaning experience?

I'm not sure about "valuable", but I suspect the crew learned something from it. I worked for an operation once, they had a pilot who screwed up a docking by putting the mixture in too quickly, starting the engine again, and cutting up the next airplanes tail. They didn't fire him, because mistakes happen and in their opinion it was better to have the guy who had done it and won't ever do it again, then to have the new guy who might do it. I know someone on here is going to bring up the situation where one pilot has multiple gear up landings... Well if I was doing the hiring they'd be in the cylindrical file after 2. I don't think I would mind hiring someone who has done it once (provided they accepted responsibility for what happened, as it was their fault), for the same reason little timmy never got fired.

E

[SuperchargedRS]

Most pilots would go around after hitting the runway with the gear up?

Really?

Just a matter of discretion and individual circumstance.

Yes, yes they would.

Q tipping two props and maybe a little scratched paint beats a full blown pancake.

I've seen it done before, small single engine, just ended up being new prop blades, engine was checked out, all to spec, didn't even scratch the paint. Option B wouldn't have been quite a pretty or as cheap.
.

After "Q tipping the props and maybe a little scratched paint....", how do you know your aircraft isn't mortally wounded? You're qualified to make that call? To continue back into the air, over houses, schools and who knows what? I'm not. Neither are you.
Give your head a shake.
Illya

Yes I am, and if you're not stay out of the cockpit.

I've never done it mind you, but if you add power and the thing shakes like crazy or something, power out and down you go, takes the power and you're 3 min or less around the patch, were not talking about flying across the country after this.

[Liquid Charlie]

Many years ago there was a classic with a dc-6 if memory serves me correctly -- coles notes - hard landing - knocked an engine off and went around - when the engine departed took out the hydraulics and gear stayed down -- wx went out and runway closed due to junk on the runway -- could not make their alternate and killed everyone trying to land on a golf course -- the point was they were on the ground and safe yet they still went around -- I'd say a story to remember - made me decide many years ago once i'm on the ground I'm staying there -- Cranbrook another example ---

[Illya Kuryakin]

Air Canada DC8 slammed it on in YYZ many years ago. Spoiler deployment I think it was. Again, they were on the ground, safe, sort of, but off they went. Killed everyone. I was to play hockey that night, but my rink became a morgue. Not very pretty.
Illya

[Illya Kuryakin]

Most pilots would go around after hitting the runway with the gear up?

Really?

It's a transport approved procedure, why not?


http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 0h0007.asp

Donald, I remember that! What a pair of knobs! Thanks for my morning laugh!
Illya

[SuperchargedRS]

Little different compared to a small twin or single in the situation I described.

Again it comes down to judgement, painting things black and white is almost always a fail.