Do Canadian professional pilots need an association

[timel]

I am genuinely asking the question, should we have a professional association for Canadian pilots?

I just saw this guys on the news lobbying the government on behalf of their members.
They have clear goals and it is not a restrictive association, the more members, the best it is.

http://www.chba.ca/about.aspx
http://www.chba.ca/members.aspx

College of professionals are actually not for the professionals, but to protect the public against misconduct of professionals.
Also College of professionals are funded by professionals to do the same job TC does, personally I would leave it all there.

Just curious to know people opinions.

[Liquid Charlie]

In what capacity - social club - association/union - lobby group -- labour relations -- all of the above -- ever tried to herd cats -- just sayin' -- likely great on paper or in idea -- But logistically -- oh my

[timel]

In what capacity - social club - association/union - lobby group -- labour relations -- all of the above -- ever tried to herd cats -- just sayin' -- likely great on paper or in idea -- But logistically -- oh my

Social club ... Why not
Union ... No
Lobby group... On issue that matters, like TFWP or rest issues in 703... Whatever the members decide it is worth protecting.
Labour relations... No

I would include mentoring programs, basic legal services to members on aviation matter, screening and review of new regulations affecting professional pilots, public voice for pilots when needed...

Food for thoughs, let's forget the cat fight for now.

[Liquid Charlie]

So maybe an opposing body to counteract the absurd operator lobby such as in 703 FDT's -- approach bans and north of 60 and all that has come out of the regulatory wing in it's absurdity in the last few years -- 703 is long need of an overhaul since the lobby got those rules implemented for vfr float operators for extended work days in the summer -- fast forward to present day where 703 IFR and night operations far exceeds the VFR stuff -- with working conditions and self pilot dispatch I can only assume TC feels fatigue is not an issue with anyone who flies 703 aircraft with paying passengers and freight -- this group is super human and can work without rest or days off -- talk about 50 years out of date -- that's the way it was when I started to fly -- aviation "ground hog day" -- I'm in -- in fact I'll help organize it -- now the only problem is to get the community to send money -- lots of money -- need budget of several hundreds of thousands of dollars -- now there is the obstacle -- the one big obstacle that likely could never be achieved -- we need seed money -- pay for set up and then more money to hire lawyers -- pay staff(not many but needed) -- and then the next issue is to maintain interest to keep the money flowing -- loose a battle -- loose membership -- that simple -- we are a fickle bunch -- as any MEC chair from the unionised side of the industry -- they will tell you!!!

[complexintentions]

When I read the title of this thread about what Canadian professional pilots need, my first thought was of the (Jack Nicholson) Joker in Batman:

"THIS INDUSTRY NEEDS AN ENEMA!"

Personally I think that would be more useful than an association, but that's just me.

[digits_]

NO

[timel]

"THIS INDUSTRY NEEDS AN ENEMA!"

I am learning new words everyday

NO

Why not?

[Liquid Charlie]

THIS INDUSTRY NEEDS AN ENEMA!

-- oh my -- now there are people out there who think an enemas are very enjoyable and of course if one is going to get it up the ass, which is very common in this industry it's in the best interest of all to be prepared and certainly hygienic - I would suggest a little KY just to lessen the discomfort --

[digits_]

NO

Why not?

Because I prefer dealing with the government over dealing with an association / college / board .. whatever you want to call it.

A government:
- only cares about the rules
- has no personal interest in you (at least in general)
- is cheaper => Yes, it is all paid by taxes, but financing an extra association will never result in a reduction of taxes, only in extra costs to support an association

An association:
- has too much freedom to make up their own rules
- will be run by other pilots, so basically by your competitors if you are a company => dangerous
- has management that will be easily corrupted by power
- will cost too much money => look at the engineering stuff that takes X % of your income to function. It's blackmail.
- find themselves way too important => Very biased opinion, yes. However I prefer dealing with a government over dealing with those semi governments. None of my contacts with boards/associations/.. have been good. What I generally perceive there is that they want lots of power yet are afraid to use that power to make any decisions that are non-standard. Probably afraid for legal consequences or fines from the actual government if they make a mistake.

So no thanks. Just give TC more employees or reduce the paperworkload and all will be well.

[Liquid Charlie]

Because I prefer dealing with the government over dealing with an association / college / board .. whatever you want to call it.

One fact for sure -- one person can not deal with the government -- I think the idea here is not an association as in union but as a lobby group to speak one pilots' behalf in Ottawa and on the hill to offset the industry owners lobby so that legislation is fair and not one sided --- this would be strictly a professional lobby group and have nothing to do with labour relations or anything else you would tie to a union -- level one carrier pilot groups and some of the level 2 have direct access to the hill so why should not the rest of us enjoy that as well and have our own watch dogs -- but again the drift in this short thread has just enforced all I have stated about us as a group -- there is so much knee jerk and shoot from the hip reaction it becomes a wonderful source of entertainment --

[snoopy]

Revised and revitalized Transport Canada, and an ombudsman or independent legal review board that can mediate any disagreement between certificate holder (pilot, mechanic, operator, AMO etc.) and Transport Canada over the interpretation of the law.

My observation is that people in general would prefer to throw money at an association over rolling up their sleeves and directly contributing to, or leading change. Claiming membership in an association provides most a relief from the guilt they feel when they know they should do something to correct a condition but don't because they're afraid of retribution, they're lazy or they don't think it's important enough to expend any personal energy over it.

Cheers,
snoopy

[Liquid Charlie]

and an ombudsman or independent legal review board that can mediate any disagreement between certificate holder (pilot, mechanic, operator, AMO etc.) and Transport Canada over the interpretation of the law.

Maybe so but what we are talking about is new law and one person will not sway or influence that -- it needs the power of the group as a whole for law makers to consider change because of that old saying "what is good for one may not be good for all" so a united voice is required to influence new law.

[timel]

Because I prefer dealing with the government over dealing with an association / college / board .. whatever you want to call it.

One fact for sure -- one person can not deal with the government -- I think the idea here is not an association as in union but as a lobby group to speak one pilots' behalf in Ottawa and on the hill to offset the industry owners lobby so that legislation is fair and not one sided --- this would be strictly a professional lobby group and have nothing to do with labour relations or anything else you would tie to a union -- level one carrier pilot groups and some of the level 2 have direct access to the hill so why should not the rest of us enjoy that as well and have our own watch dogs -

Exactly.

An association:
- has too much freedom to make up their own rules
- will be run by other pilots, so basically by your competitors if you are a company => dangerous
- has management that will be easily corrupted by power
- will cost too much money => look at the engineering stuff that takes X % of your income to function. It's blackmail.
- find themselves way too important => Very biased opinion, yes. However I prefer dealing with a government over dealing with those semi governments. None of my contacts with boards/associations/.. have been good. What I generally perceive there is that they want lots of power yet are afraid to use that power to make any decisions that are non-standard. Probably afraid for legal consequences or fines from the actual government if they make a mistake.

We don't need to have a restrictive association, it is all about how you establish it, on what ground rules you decide to base you work. People wouldn't be forced to adhere, but if they want to get involved and change something, at least they will have tool at hand that available.

[goingnowherefast]

Most 703 pilots are broke and can't afford to fund a lobby. The 703 world is broken, I mean completely f---ed. The government doesn't care, the pilots can't afford to lobby and are too disorganized even if they could. What's the solution? Wait until enough Navajos, Beavers, Caravans and helicopters smash into the ground that the voting public starts to notice? Never mind, that won't work, the public doesn't fly on those little planes because they "look dangerous" or "are scary".

Some form of lobby or association is exactly what the 703 world needs, but it won't happen. As soon as your boss finds out that you are part of some grass roots lobby or association, you'll find yourself collecting EI.

[Johnny#5]

^ spot on