The Air Canada OTS thread

[PostmasterGeneral]

Wow, still so few jazz, considering how far hiring is behind for jazz.

They’re not “behind” on anything. That “flow” agreement was always just an exercise to get more pilots into jazz. They never intended to actually follow it, especially post covid.

[cdnavater]

Wow, still so few jazz, considering how far hiring is behind for jazz.

They’re not “behind” on anything. That “flow” agreement was always just an exercise to get more pilots into jazz. They never intended to actually follow it, especially post covid.

You know it’s a four party signed agreement that makes up part of the Jazz pilot labour agreement, so yes they are behind and the Jazz MEC says they have a plan but hope to come to an agreement.
Plan B, who knows, they aren’t saying, just there is one!

[negroni]

Who's the fourth party?

[cdnavater]

Who's the fourth party?

The original pml needed ACPA to sign for the seniority carry over, honestly I can’t find the most up to date pml to see who signed.
ACPA may not be on it anymore given the recent attempt to amend it without our consent, AC certainly is though and the fact remains it is part of the collective agreement.

[schnitzel2k3]

Wow, still so few jazz, considering how far hiring is behind for jazz.

They’re not “behind” on anything. That “flow” agreement was always just an exercise to get more pilots into jazz. They never intended to actually follow it, especially post covid.

You know it’s a four party signed agreement that makes up part of the Jazz pilot labour agreement, so yes they are behind and the Jazz MEC says they have a plan but hope to come to an agreement.
Plan B, who knows, they aren’t saying, just there is one!

Hopefully either plan involves them overhauling their abysmal payscales to something that resembles a proper transborder airline. Meanwhile U.S Captains on the same metal are topping 256k first year, and first year F.Os start around 92k not inckuding bonuses.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Wow, still so few jazz, considering how far hiring is behind for jazz.

They’re not “behind” on anything. That “flow” agreement was always just an exercise to get more pilots into jazz. They never intended to actually follow it, especially post covid.

You know it’s a four party signed agreement that makes up part of the Jazz pilot labour agreement, so yes they are behind and the Jazz MEC says they have a plan but hope to come to an agreement.
Plan B, who knows, they aren’t saying, just there is one!

It was an "agreement in principle" between AC and Jazz, with the blessing of JAZ MEC. Basically, there is no recourse against AC should they not follow what the originally set out to do. It's a win-win for them unfortunately.

[cdnavater]

[quote=cdnavater post_id=<a href="tel:1225155">1225155</a> time=<a href="tel:1668643711">1668643711</a> user_id=78357]
[quote=PostmasterGeneral post_id=<a href="tel:1225146">1225146</a> time=<a href="tel:1668638514">1668638514</a> user_id=22560]
[quote=canadian_aviator_4 post_id=<a href="tel:1225092">1225092</a> time=<a href="tel:1668621520">1668621520</a> user_id=90444]
Wow, still so few jazz, considering how far hiring is behind for jazz.

They’re not “behind” on anything. That “flow” agreement was always just an exercise to get more pilots into jazz. They never intended to actually follow it, especially post covid.
[/quote]

You know it’s a four party signed agreement that makes up part of the Jazz pilot labour agreement, so yes they are behind and the Jazz MEC says they have a plan but hope to come to an agreement.
Plan B, who knows, they aren’t saying, just there is one!
[/quote]

It was an "agreement in principle" between AC and Jazz, with the blessing of JAZ MEC. Basically, there is no recourse against AC should they not follow what the originally set out to do. It's a win-win for them unfortunately.
[/quote]
Ok, so in your mind it was a handshake agreement that they put into writing in the contract of a labour union, okey dokey.
I guess we’ll see, there is no way they will be able meet the agreed upon flow so, next we see what recourse looks like, cheers

[Tbayer2021]

[quote=cdnavater post_id=<a href="tel:1225155">1225155</a> time=<a href="tel:1668643711">1668643711</a> user_id=78357]
[quote=PostmasterGeneral post_id=<a href="tel:1225146">1225146</a> time=<a href="tel:1668638514">1668638514</a> user_id=22560]
[quote=canadian_aviator_4 post_id=<a href="tel:1225092">1225092</a> time=<a href="tel:1668621520">1668621520</a> user_id=90444]
Wow, still so few jazz, considering how far hiring is behind for jazz.

They’re not “behind” on anything. That “flow” agreement was always just an exercise to get more pilots into jazz. They never intended to actually follow it, especially post covid.

You know it’s a four party signed agreement that makes up part of the Jazz pilot labour agreement, so yes they are behind and the Jazz MEC says they have a plan but hope to come to an agreement.
Plan B, who knows, they aren’t saying, just there is one!
[/quote]

It was an "agreement in principle" between AC and Jazz, with the blessing of JAZ MEC. Basically, there is no recourse against AC should they not follow what the originally set out to do. It's a win-win for them unfortunately.
[/quote]
Ok, so in your mind it was a handshake agreement that they put into writing in the contract of a labour union, okey dokey.
I guess we’ll see, there is no way they will be able meet the agreed upon flow so, next we see what recourse looks like, cheers
[/quote]

Recourse is not going to look like anything. You think Jazz will bite the hand that feeds them? They already tried that with the 757's and it didn't work out too well for them.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Recourse is not going to look like anything. You think Jazz will bite the hand that feeds them? They already tried that with the 757's and it didn't work out too well for them.

This is exactly what I'm trying to tell this guy. AC really doesn't give a crap what ALPA has to say, since they don't have a leg to stand on. Not saying it isn't in bad faith, but its the unfortunate reality.

[cdnavater]

Recourse is not going to look like anything. You think Jazz will bite the hand that feeds them? They already tried that with the 757's and it didn't work out too well for them.

This is exactly what I'm trying to tell this guy. AC really doesn't give a crap what ALPA has to say, since they don't have a leg to stand on. Not saying it isn't in bad faith, but its the unfortunate reality.

So, you guys think this couldn’t get arbitration, you know a good faith agreement and all.
Is there harm to the Jazz pilot who is essentially bypassed?
Could the harm be easily defined? Career progression, pay progression, loss of seniority? I’m sure smarter people than you or I with more information have looked into this, hint Jazz ALPA has said they have a plan.
Like I said, we will see but to think there is no recourse to be had is just plain ignorance. An agreement is an agreement, bad faith or not.
PS; Does not affect me one iota, maybe we revisit this next year sometime and see whether or not AC gave a crap.

[Tbayer2021]

Recourse is not going to look like anything. You think Jazz will bite the hand that feeds them? They already tried that with the 757's and it didn't work out too well for them.

This is exactly what I'm trying to tell this guy. AC really doesn't give a crap what ALPA has to say, since they don't have a leg to stand on. Not saying it isn't in bad faith, but its the unfortunate reality.

So, you guys think this couldn’t get arbitration, you know a good faith agreement and all.
Is there harm to the Jazz pilot who is essentially bypassed?
Could the harm be easily defined? Career progression, pay progression, loss of seniority? I’m sure smarter people than you or I with more information have looked into this, hint Jazz ALPA has said they have a plan.
Like I said, we will see but to think there is no recourse to be had is just plain ignorance. An agreement is an agreement, bad faith or not.
PS; Does not affect me one iota, maybe we revisit this next year sometime and see whether or not AC gave a crap.

Everything you said is true, and what they have done so far is very much in bad faith. But I don't think you're placing enough importance on the dynamic between the two companies. Jazz literally exists at the behest of AC. Last time Jazz got out of their lane, AC farmed out a good chunk of their flying. Yes, arbitration could potentially get them some sort of victory, but what that looks like is anybody's guess. All of these smarter people than us know how this relationship works. Last thing JAZZ wants or needs is a repeat of Sky Regional and Georgian. Considering it happened in the past, I'd put my money on Jazz not wanting to give AC a reason to take any of their current flying.

An agreement is indeed an agreement. But a contract is only good if you have the ability to enforce it.

[canadian_aviator_4]

C9185269-63BB-4EF0-823C-E83B8003F719.jpeg (27.42 KiB) Viewed 1572 times

[PostmasterGeneral]

Recourse is not going to look like anything. You think Jazz will bite the hand that feeds them? They already tried that with the 757's and it didn't work out too well for them.

This is exactly what I'm trying to tell this guy. AC really doesn't give a crap what ALPA has to say, since they don't have a leg to stand on. Not saying it isn't in bad faith, but its the unfortunate reality.

So, you guys think this couldn’t get arbitration, you know a good faith agreement and all.
Is there harm to the Jazz pilot who is essentially bypassed?
Could the harm be easily defined? Career progression, pay progression, loss of seniority? I’m sure smarter people than you or I with more information have looked into this, hint Jazz ALPA has said they have a plan.
Like I said, we will see but to think there is no recourse to be had is just plain ignorance. An agreement is an agreement, bad faith or not.
PS; Does not affect me one iota, maybe we revisit this next year sometime and see whether or not AC gave a crap.

What is there to arbitrate? You’re forgetting that JAZZ was the company who put a kaibosh to the 60% hiring, or else they wouldn’t have been able to staff their operation. AC doesn’t care where the pilots come from to fill their new hire classes. This is much more an issue between ALPA and Jazz than it is ALPA/Jazz and AC.

[cdnavater]

This is exactly what I'm trying to tell this guy. AC really doesn't give a crap what ALPA has to say, since they don't have a leg to stand on. Not saying it isn't in bad faith, but its the unfortunate reality.

So, you guys think this couldn’t get arbitration, you know a good faith agreement and all.
Is there harm to the Jazz pilot who is essentially bypassed?
Could the harm be easily defined? Career progression, pay progression, loss of seniority? I’m sure smarter people than you or I with more information have looked into this, hint Jazz ALPA has said they have a plan.
Like I said, we will see but to think there is no recourse to be had is just plain ignorance. An agreement is an agreement, bad faith or not.
PS; Does not affect me one iota, maybe we revisit this next year sometime and see whether or not AC gave a crap.

What is there to arbitrate? You’re forgetting that JAZZ was the company who put a kaibosh to the 60% hiring, or else they wouldn’t have been able to staff their operation. AC doesn’t care where the pilots come from to fill their new hire classes. This is much more an issue between ALPA and Jazz than it is ALPA/Jazz and AC.

Do you have some inside information? Ie; Jazz put the kaibosh….
I’m sure both AC and Jazz would be named participants in any future arbitration or discussions, again, an agreement is an agreement whether you intended to honour it or not

[canadian_aviator_4]

This is exactly what I'm trying to tell this guy. AC really doesn't give a crap what ALPA has to say, since they don't have a leg to stand on. Not saying it isn't in bad faith, but its the unfortunate reality.

So, you guys think this couldn’t get arbitration, you know a good faith agreement and all.
Is there harm to the Jazz pilot who is essentially bypassed?
Could the harm be easily defined? Career progression, pay progression, loss of seniority? I’m sure smarter people than you or I with more information have looked into this, hint Jazz ALPA has said they have a plan.
Like I said, we will see but to think there is no recourse to be had is just plain ignorance. An agreement is an agreement, bad faith or not.
PS; Does not affect me one iota, maybe we revisit this next year sometime and see whether or not AC gave a crap.

What is there to arbitrate? You’re forgetting that JAZZ was the company who put a kaibosh to the 60% hiring, or else they wouldn’t have been able to staff their operation. AC doesn’t care where the pilots come from to fill their new hire classes. This is much more an issue between ALPA and Jazz than it is ALPA/Jazz and AC.

Agree with this statement. AC needs pilots, and it’s Jazz responsibility not AC to keep jazz staffed. So if jazz can’t keep itself staffed they will slow or stop flow. AC can cover jazz flying, as they have been doing such as with the A220 YVR-YEG.

[flyingcanuck]

Yes but lets be real, AC also as a vested interest in Jazz NOT raising wages.

[alkaseltzer]

Yes but lets be real, AC also as a vested interest in Jazz NOT raising wages.

Let’s see what happens when the Jazz Elites start booking off during Christmas.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Yes but lets be real, AC also as a vested interest in Jazz NOT raising wages.

AC pays a set cost to Jazz, so the only people affected by increased pay is Jazz. No?

[PostmasterGeneral]

Do you have some inside information? Ie; Jazz put the kaibosh….
I’m sure both AC and Jazz would be named participants in any future arbitration or discussions, again, an agreement is an agreement whether you intended to honour it or not

Hate to break it to you, but there won't be any sort of arbitration. There will be a shady back room deal somewhere, and the issue will just "go away."

[schnitzel2k3]

I wonder at what point on increasing oay or bonuses/rate adjustment to flightcrew would cross them from a profit to a loss and how AC would handle them trying to squeeze more money for pilot retention/attraction?