question on civilian buying aircrafts

[VicViper_Mk2]

Hello guys, I got a couple of questions on my mind regarding civilian buying aircrafts (specifically fighter jets), and I would really appreciate any answers that will give me a better understanding of the whole process. Thank you in advance.

First off, I love flying, and I don't mean just sitting in a 747 going 600mph in a relatively straight line, but actually flying a small plane yourself. A friend recently got his pilot license and he took me on a quick flight in this prop plane, it was an wonderful experience. Flying a plane is as awesome as going into space, which is something most people will never have the chance to do so in their lifetime. To be able to say you did it, its a great life achievement. However, I'm not really interested in prop planes, but rather fighter Jets/combat aircrafts are my favorites.

So I did some research, and it looks like civilians can indeed purchase fighter jet/combat aircrafts, with some guidelines. It must be:
1.Retired from military service
2.Unarmed
3.Crucial military technologies removed (more on that later)
4.And probably some kind of safety checks to meet flight guidelines, or something along that line.

Looking into the selection of planes being sold, I noticed that most of them are prop planes used in WW2, a few jets from the 60's and 70's, and many variety of MiGs. But in the end my favorite has to go to American-made aircrafts, they really know their stuff when it comes to building planes. But it seems not too many of their retired planes are for sale because I heard that they scrap them instead. Don't they keep any retired but still functional planes at those boneyards until they need to be scrapped for parts?

Next comes the price. A jet is expensive, that's a given, but what I don't get is the amount you pay and what you get in return. For example, I heard for some planes, you could be expected to pay a 6 to 7 figure amount, only to get a scrap in return. I wasn't too sure what they meant by scrap, do they mean a piece or pieces of the plane (a cockpit, pieces of a wing, a section of the aircraft, etc.) or a complete plane with all of its electrical and mechanical parts taken out, leaving only a shell. If its the latter I can understand the price somewhat, at least its relatively complete, but if its just bits and pieces, how can they justify such a humongous price tag for a pile of debris?

Regarding military technologies, radar usually falls in this category. How can you fly a jet without radar? Are there civilian version you can use instead?

And here are 3 hypothetical questions.

Suppose if a particular plane you wanted is all but scrapped, and let's assume money is not an issue. Would the company that build the plane be interested in building you a working replica, but without the military hardware installed (Lockheed, Grumman, etc.) Is there any laws against aviation companies dealing with civilians in this case?

Assuming that the above companies won't cater to your needs, and let's say that you came up with your very own original concept for a jet, with all the technical aspect rock solid, could you create your own company and build the jet? Again are there any kind of laws that prevents a civilian from doing so?

Let's say you gone through all the trouble and got your very own jet, where can you put it? Private airfields are probably too short for jets to land/take-off, and international airports probably don't have the space to store your jet with all the other planes that needs the hangars. And what about fuel, do jets use the same fuel used in commercial airlines?

That's about it, I know it's all hypothetical now, but I love jets and who knows it just might come true one day, at least I'll have a good idea how to go about it, because buying an aircraft is certainly more difficult than getting a car, so its good to know the facts. Thank you for your time. Cheers.

[ahramin]

I'm not sure we're living on the same planet but I'll try to answer some of your easier questions.

First of all yes there are many requirements to be met before an aircraft designed for military use can be registered as a private aircraft. The aircraft has not gone through the civilian certification process and as you have pointed out may have technology that can only be sold to approved governments. However, there is an established track record of overcoming these obstacles for everything from WWI bombers to Harrier fighter jets. It is very expensive but has been done many times so obviously can be done.

No aircraft needs a radar to fly. To operate all weather aircraft around thunderstorms you will need weather radar (different from military tracking radar) and there are many companies making these. Totally not a big deal.

For your hypothetical questions I'm going to assume when you say jet you mean fighter jets. My definition of a fighter jet would include all the weaponry necessary to shoot down other aircraft so yes, there are laws against putting weapons in aircraft. If you delete the weapons then it isn't a fighter jet, and the answer to most of your questions become pretty obvious so no, no law against what you are proposing.

You could park your jet at any large airport. That's what all the other owners of retired military fighter jets do. You buy or build a hangar and store it there. The fuel is the same fuel as all other jets.

[ahramin]

Some sites you might want to look through:

http://artnalls.com/

http://www.vintagewings.ca/Aircraft/tab ... bre-5.aspx

http://www.waterloowarbirds.com/

http://www.starfighters.net/fleet/

[digits_]

A "scrap plane" does not mean that an airplane is completely fallen apart. It could be a perfectly functional airplane with missing paperwork, or an engine that needs to be replaced (but is still functioning). Or an airplane with one tiny broken part you can't find a replacement for. Or an airplane that isn't commercially viable (huge fuel burn, sub par performance etc).

[VicViper_Mk2]

Thank you for the quick replies, I got a good understanding on what "scrap" means.

Weather radar is fine, but are they able to detect other aircrafts?

Its good to know international airports are designed to handle private planes, and that you can rent/buy/build your own hangar and buy fuel.

And yes, when I say Jet, I meant fighter jet, or rather an unarmed version, that meets the guidelines for private use.

I guess all that's left is whether or not aviation companies would consider building replicas for a tidy sum? For example, the F-14 has been retired for over 10 years, yet they may have all been scrapped for parts. If I were to approach Grumman and asks if they can build a working replica, would they likely oblige? Would they have to consider factors such as which country you'll be exporting the plane too (so it won't fall into another country's hand and face the possibility of reverse engineering the technology, even if its a decade old) your personal background/history, etc.

[photofly]

If I were to approach Grumman and asks if they can build a working replica, would they likely oblige?

Awesome... Ali G arrives on AvCanada. I haven't got time to call myself so do me a favour and ask if they'll throw in a space shuttle and Saturn V moon rocket while you have their attention. I promise only to use them for good.

Keep it up, folks.

[Panama Jack]

Fascinating discussion.

A few years ago, while I was doing some ultralight flying in Australia, our topic of conversation with the owner (who is Australian ex-Air Force and Navy) of the school I was renting from drifted into military surplus jets. There was some guy about a hundred kilometers away who was giving 15 minute fighter-jet rides for a few hundred dollars.

His view was that only governments had the money and the where-with-all to operate fighter jets. Besides the obvious fuel thirstiness, fighter jets are quite high maintenance. He said that the military provides about 10 man-hours of maintenance per one flight hour. Civilian operators typically aim for the opposite. He attributed several accidents to this stretching of maintenance. Probably some of the older generation jets are better in this realm than the newer stuff.

[Panama Jack]

By the way, ahramin, did you ever get those issues straigtened out on your little jet or are you still having trouble reaching the sound barrier?

[photofly]

How about an L39? they're quite cheap. Or maybe Cessna will sell the op a Scorpion?

[AuxBatOn]

How about an L39? they're quite cheap. Or maybe Cessna will sell the op a Scorpion?

You want a Scorpion? Better have $20M in your bank account!

To the OP: you will need to seriously educate yourself on aviation before you think of buying a jet.

No, Grumman (Actually Northrop Grumman now) won't build you a replica. The assembly line doesn't exist anymore and they won't start it for you, even if you give them $100M... The F-14s were scapped because the US didn't want spare parts to get in the hands of Iran (who still operates them)

No, you don't need an aircraft tracking radar to fly a jet. If you want one, you better present your case to the US State Department and explain why, under the ITAR, you should be allowed to own and operate a fire control radar.

[niss]

If you want one, you better present your case to the US State Department and explain why, under the ITAR, you should be allowed to own and operate a fire control radar.

Cause OP is a US citizen as well, and it's his 2nd Amendment right Goddamnit! How is he ever supposed to protect him and his family from the ne'er-do-well, and a tyrannical government unless he's got a proper firing solution?

[PilotDAR]

Vic Viper,

As you have some pretty good thinkers answering your questions with real world value, can you confirm your capability to endure the cost of this type of flying? Hundreds of hours of instruction (most in prop planes) to gain adequate skill to move up to jets, purchasing costs for the jet, as well as moving it (and probably very costly to insure, if even possible), and then operating costs in the many thousands of dollars an hour?

Dreaming is nice, dreaming in the realm of the real world of general aviation is even nicer...

[Pratt X 3]

Sorry, this sort of thing doesn't usually bug me but it is today...

It's AIRCRAFT, not AIRCRAFTS. It is already plural. You wouldn't say GEESES, would you?

Thanks. I feel a little better. Guess I should talk to the doctor about increasing the doseage.

[switchflicker]

That took a bit longer than I would have thought.

So, what's the plural of Kleenex? Smartypants.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Kleeni

[CpnCrunch]

I'm pretty sure this is an elaborate troll...

However if anyone really wants to fly a jet warbird, here is where you should go:

http://www.jetwarbird.com/

[linecrew]

That took a bit longer than I would have thought.

So, what's the plural of Kleenex? Smartypants.

"Tissues" Kleenex is the name of the company that makes...wait for it...tissues.

[VicViper_Mk2]

I'm pretty sure this is an elaborate troll...

However if anyone really wants to fly a jet warbird, here is where you should go:

http://www.jetwarbird.com/

FYI, this was not an attempt at trolling, its a serious question. Please understand that I ask only because I have no knowledge on the subject matter, and would like to get a better understanding on the working process. Granted, this sounds out of the ordinary, its not everyday an average joe wants to buy himself a multi million dollar plane, but just because I can't afford it right now doesn't mean I can't learn about how this whole thing works. If the day comes when its possible, I would rather know what to do than to go in blind, wasting time and finding answers on the spot.

Yes, its aircraft, thanks for the correction. My grammar slipped up.

I got quite a few useful links, and a great deal of questions answered, I'll be doing some further research on the matter. Appreciate all the help. Many thanks.

[JasonE]

Even if I had money laying around to buy one, I'd just pay for a few rides here and there....

[dash8dave]

That took a bit longer than I would have thought.

So, what's the plural of Kleenex? Smartypants.

"Tissues" Kleenex is the name of the company that makes...wait for it...tissues.

BAZINGA!!!

[goingnowherefast]

It's fun to daydream about the hypothetical. I'd personally love an F-86.

If you actually have the means to own and operate an ex-military fighter jet, just get one that somebody else has already "civilian-ized". There's lots in the States.

If I had that kind of money though, I'd get a Pitts and a small Citation. One for fun and one for travel, it would still be cheaper than an ex-military fighter jet.

[LousyFisherman]

Even if I had money laying around to buy one, I'd just pay for a few rides here and there....

After reading the website I had to calculate how many hours I could afford. Unfortunately it didn't take very long

If I had that kind of money though, I'd get a Pitts and a small Citation. One for fun and one for travel, it would still be cheaper than an ex-military fighter jet.

I'm pretty sure we could afford a nice floatplane too, and still be cheaper than the fighter.

LF

[ahramin]

By the way, ahramin, did you ever get those issues straigtened out on your little jet or are you still having trouble reaching the sound barrier?

Still very subsonic. Should have everything done by the end of the month if I decide to skip Oshkosh. This working for a living business couldn't have started at a worse time. How about you? Still just an expensive ride on mower or are you airborne?

[porcsord]

Have you considered, oh I don't know... enlisting?

Failing that, how about going to the National Test Pilot School?

[kamikaze]

Someone else said it ... look at getting an L-39 :

http://www.controller.com/listings/airc ... dlgrp=L-39

Doesn't cost millions at all, at least to purchase ... and you'll have all the fun of a fighter jet ...