Winter ops question for genav

[pelmet]

Does this guy know what he is talking about or just lucky so far?.........He flies a Piper Cub on wheels on a local hard surface runway with no plowing.

"Many have expressed concerned that snow would flip an airplane on landing. My rationale, which has worked for many years, is that if the airplane cannot taxi, it isn’t going to takeoff, so flipping on landing is an unnecessary concern. If the airplane can taxi without excessive resistance, much less takeoff without flipping over, landing will more than likely be ok, presuming that tire conditions remain the same. I am sure wet snow freezing on the ground during the course of the flight, landing angle, change in speeds, and the effect of idle power versus takeoff power could have some definite impacts. So far, conservative decisions have saved me any trouble."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jAPGoAns5Q

[TeePeeCreeper]

Pelmet,

What is your question exactly? You seem to be the utter most shit disturber on this site.

What's the point of your starting this thread?

[pelmet]

Pelmet,

What is your question exactly? You seem to be the utter most shit disturber on this site.

What's the point of your starting this thread?

Wow.....I'm a shit disturber because I am asking a simple question(which you apparently are not even smart enough to comprehend) looking for more knowledge.

So I will simplify it for you...

The pilot has said "Many have expressed concerned that snow would flip an airplane on landing. My rationale, which has worked for many years, is that if the airplane cannot taxi, it isn’t going to takeoff, so flipping on landing is an unnecessary concern." I hate to go out and try something like this without trying to find out more information about it from some of the experienced winter ops pilots on this forum. Maybe these other experienced pilots will confirm that his method does work well or maybe they will say, Hey...this guy is taking a huge risk, so don't try it yourself.

Safety related questions are usually not considered to be what you accuse me of. So why the mindless "shit disturber" comment? Perhaps still holding a grudge that I proved you didn't know what you are taking about in this thread a while back on another safety related issue?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=109691

[Cat Driver]

Deleted.

[goingmach_1]

Pelmet, your weird, just saying

[pelmet]

It looks like the snow was not very deep and the airplane was operated safely in that condition.

Thanks,

Do you think his rule of thumb works?

I have never tried it myself with more than about perhaps 1 inch deep snow and that was not in a taildragger.

[Cat Driver]

Deleted.

[pelmet]

Just looking at the video it is a bit difficult to tell exactly what the snow was like but it was probably dry light feathery type which is easier to taxi and take off and land in than heavy wet snow.

Air temperature is also important...the colder the better.

Thanks,

Good points. Nice to get useful comments from someone who knows what they are talking about on a safety related issue.

[trey kule]

Taking advice from the internet is not always a good thing. I have seen the results of those who thought they could land on snow on wheels. It does not always work out as planned.
And when it doesn't they are faced with the "what were you thinking?" questions.
Be cautious.

BTW. "From the Ground Up" used to have some excellent advice about ski flying AND landing on snow on wheels.
I do not have a copy any more , but IIRC correctly there is a good section on winter ops, ski ops, both of which cover landing conditions, and if you dig a bit, a special reference to landing on snow on wheels...

[pelmet]

Taking advice from the internet is not always a good thing. I have seen the results of those who thought they could land on snow on wheels. It does not always work out as planned.
And when it doesn't they are faced with the "what were you thinking?" questions.
Be cautious.

BTW. "From the Ground Up" used to have some excellent advice about ski flying AND landing on snow on wheels.
I do not have a copy any more , but IIRC correctly there is a good section on winter ops, ski ops, both of which cover landing conditions, and if you dig a bit, a special reference to landing on snow on wheels...

Very true, but taking advice from many people is not always a good idea. There is a wealth of information on the internet about aviation on forums. Like in real life, you have to do your best to filter out the BS(and the completely mindless info from two earlier posters on this thread). Therefore do your best to confirm, try to verify with other sources etc.

With all that being said, I appreciate that you, as an internet source has given me some advice on where to go for some more info. I have an old "From the Ground Up" and will check into it.

Thank you.

[digits_]

I think it is an interesting question. There are some differences between take off and landing though. On take off you will, generally, smoothly lift up out of the snow. You will rarely have more than 1 G load on the wheels.

On landing however, more than 1 G is very common. This might cause you to sink deeper in the snow on landing than on take off. That in combination with a nosewheel (if applicable) that might then dig into the snow a bit more, could make it more dangerous than just the takeoff.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Pelmet,

What is your question exactly? You seem to be the utter most shit disturber on this site.

What's the point of your starting this thread?

Wow.....I'm a shit disturber because I am asking a simple question(which you apparently are not even smart enough to comprehend) looking for more knowledge.

So I will simplify it for you...

The pilot has said "Many have expressed concerned that snow would flip an airplane on landing. My rationale, which has worked for many years, is that if the airplane cannot taxi, it isn’t going to takeoff, so flipping on landing is an unnecessary concern." I hate to go out and try something like this without trying to find out more information about it from some of the experienced winter ops pilots on this forum. Maybe these other experienced pilots will confirm that his method does work well or maybe they will say, Hey...this guy is taking a huge risk, so don't try it yourself.

Safety related questions are usually not considered to be what you accuse me of. So why the mindless "shit disturber" comment? Perhaps still holding a grudge that I proved you didn't know what you are taking about in this thread a while back on another safety related issue?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=109691

Full of yourself much? By your subsequent posts it would appear that way.

[pelmet]

Full of yourself much? By your subsequent posts it would appear that way.

Teepeecreeper......take a look at your posts compared to the other replies on this thread. You have added nothing(which seems to follow a pattern) in the middle of what is becoming an interesting thread. One poster on here has just privately sent me an accident report. Why don't you try adding something useful to this thread and this forum for a change. If unable, I suggest trying a different forum as we would definitely be better off without your completely unrelated to the subject whining. Considering the posts you have made on this thread, it amazes me that I am accused of being the disturber.

[pelmet]

I think it is an interesting question. There are some differences between take off and landing though. On take off you will, generally, smoothly lift up out of the snow. You will rarely have more than 1 G load on the wheels.

On landing however, more than 1 G is very common. This might cause you to sink deeper in the snow on landing than on take off. That in combination with a nosewheel (if applicable) that might then dig into the snow a bit more, could make it more dangerous than just the takeoff.

Thanks for the comments about the subject of the thread....I have to admit that I have been looking at this from a tail wheel aircraft point of view.

[digits_]

I think it is an interesting question. There are some differences between take off and landing though. On take off you will, generally, smoothly lift up out of the snow. You will rarely have more than 1 G load on the wheels.

On landing however, more than 1 G is very common. This might cause you to sink deeper in the snow on landing than on take off. That in combination with a nosewheel (if applicable) that might then dig into the snow a bit more, could make it more dangerous than just the takeoff.

Thanks for the comments about the subject of the thread....I have to admit that I have been looking at this from a tail wheel aircraft point of view.

That could potentially be bad as well: if the wheels dig in too much, you could, hypothetically, flip over. Even if you managed to take off before.

During take off you have a lot of control as you smoothly try to get the plane airborne as quickly as possible during a soft field take off. Your wings start to generate more lift as you accelerate. On landing, the control will be less smooth, as you need to hit the ground at some point.

Anyway, just theoretically from my point, as I haven't tried landing on a field where I could only barely take off. A rule of thumb my old flying club used was to only take off / land in snow that doesn't reach the rim of the wheel.

[Cat Driver]

I have deleted my posts because I am not interested in getting in the centre of pissing matches.

[trey kule]

That is to bad Cat. You made some very relevant points....

[pelmet]

That's Ok. I copied them in my replies. And yes, he did make some good points. May just prevent an accident. I suspect the "disturbing" is over now and that I ran him off, so hopefully we can get some more real world experiences. Snow no higher than the rims can help prevent frozen brakes and may have been the primary reason for the flight school rule.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I suspect the "disturbing" is over now and that I ran him off, so hopefully we can get some more real world experiences.

Wow. That's classy (spelled with a Captial "K") pelmet. I stand by what I previously wrote. I'm sure you will as well. Humility isn't your strong suit.

But you are right on one account, I do have advice to share....

The original blurb posted apparently works for one man and his cub. He is the only one whom may have to answer to his wallet or heightened insurance premiums should things ever go sideways. I would tend to agree with his philosophy in general. It's working or has worked for him thus far. Let's remember that off strip flying does not really have a strict set of guidelines.

I would tend to agree with this gentleman's technique on the ground. The predominant concern when ski/winter flying isn't evaluating the situation on the ground but rather during an off strip landing into unknown surface conditions.

I've personally never taken my personal tail dragger or any aircraft on wheels onto a surface unless it was bare ice or hard packed snow. I operate my personal bird on fix pen skis therefore my main concern isn't depth (that's one of the many reasons to "drag" your intended landing zone first) but slush of the hidden variety which is usually the nemesis of ski/winter off strip operations.

Respectfully,
TPC

[Cat Driver]

It can be very hard to determine just where slush is and it can move over time.

We parked a DC3 one night and everything was normal when we went to sleep.

However in the morning we woke up to find one gear had sunk in slush and the wing was resting on the snow.

It took two days to get it out of there.

One day to get the air bags flown in and one day lifting and freezing new ice under the ski until we could start it and move it.

And it happened at one of our regular overnight bases POV.

[pelmet]

I suspect the "disturbing" is over now and that I ran him off, so hopefully we can get some more real world experiences.

Wow. That's classy (spelled with a Captial "K") pelmet. I stand by what I previously wrote. I'm sure you will as well. Humility isn't your strong suit.

But you are right on one account, I do have advice to share....

The original blurb posted apparently works for one man and his cub. He is the only one whom may have to answer to his wallet or heightened insurance premiums should things ever go sideways. I would tend to agree with his philosophy in general. It's working or has worked for him thus far. Let's remember that off strip flying does not really have a strict set of guidelines.

I would tend to agree with this gentleman's technique on the ground. The predominant concern when ski/winter flying isn't evaluating the situation on the ground but rather during an off strip landing into unknown surface conditions.

I've personally never taken my personal tail dragger or any aircraft on wheels onto a surface unless it was bare ice or hard packed snow. I operate my personal bird on fix pen skis therefore my main concern isn't depth (that's one of the many reasons to "drag" your intended landing zone first) but slush of the hidden variety which is usually the nemesis of ski/winter off strip operations.

Respectfully,
TPC

Looks like I was able to finally get something useful out of you(that is a first). Would have been nicer if it was your initial post but we will take what we can get. I do however suggest that the mods delete the rest of your babble(and my subsequent appropriate replies) though and we continue the important stuff. Glad to have brought up an important subject. Any other on topic thoughts.