Soft ground grabs another Cessna

[pelmet]

Sounds very similar to an accident that happened years ago where I used to fly skydivers in an old C180. Wet spring, soft ground nearby and didn't stay on the centerline on takeoff. In that case there was a strong crosswind and a narrow paved runway. Not sure what the winds were on the day of this recent accident or what caused the veering.


"C-FGHM, a Cessna P206B aircraft operated by Southwestern Ontario Organization Of Parachutists, was conducting a flight from a private airstrip in Dundas, ON. During the takeoff roll, the aircraft veered off the unpaved strip on the west side of the runway. The nose wheel dug into the soft ground and separated from the aircraft. Consequently, the propeller struck the ground and the aircraft ground looped approximately 90 degrees to the right. The left wing made contact with terrain during the ground loop and was significantly damaged. There were no reported injuries to the pilot or the 5 passengers onboard."

[pdw]

Not sure what the winds were on the day of this recent accident or what caused the veering.

Need occurrance date, time of day, Lat / Long, and hdg ... to check for wx / wet ground. Good to investigate when there's interest to learn something new. Why not be sure

(The reason well-done reports are sometimes so amazing to read, is that there usually is something that goes different for the pilot in his/her anticipated routine. So often it's a few layers of items to make up the factor/probable list, although instinct is to pinpoint the single major contributor. We can get to the bottom of why one factor repeats a lot. For an example, the work now being done on fatigue, and the reason that its prevention has become so necessary, is that in many reports it was determined a participating factor .. but then seemed sort-of open ended on what there's to do about it. )

[pdw]

If we're talking about one of the mains on the dirt first off the "west" side of the pavement ... it can be "soft" alone that veers it. To get off centre in the first place ... check area component evidence which could affect a stable takeoff trajectory. With CAVOK and CALM, .. might investigate texting / attending a cell .. or some other distraction .. the loading factor/envelope.

[pelmet]

If we're talking about one of the mains on the dirt first off the "west" side of the pavement, yes, then it can be "soft" alone that veers it. To get off centre in the first place though ... there might be some wind currents recorded around that destabilized the straight line the pilot is aiming. If CAVOK and CALM, you might investigate texting / attending a cell .. or some other distraction .. or even a loading factor/envelope.

Thanks for the advice. When I posted, I was hoping that someone in the know would post more information based on known information instead of guesswork.

Your comments have been noted. Thanks for the input.

[pdw]

I was hoping that someone in the know would post more information based on known information instead of guesswork.

OK thanks, the pilot might not even know what happened, so checking it out can enlighten us. If passengers get to frame the final story, the resulting bafflegab might let the uneducated narrative into local heresay history. The embarrassed pilot only wants to move on of course, so "in the know" might be leaving it alone too for that reason .. and 'everyone was alright' so why bother with it. Yet, in this case it's similar distance from the Lake / same lakehead but 20 miles NW of my own soft field accident, so I'll definitely keep it on the backburner the next few weeks. Who knows, you might find afterall that it was worthwhile to bring it to our attention ...

[anofly]

I will tell you from experience that the strip at Dundas is very narrow for what most folks are used to. It is sort of a crushed cinders (from STELCO?) or crushed recycled pavement , but the grass edge is very close and the crushed rock portion is a bit raised, so once you start over its also "down" a bit to the grass. I wouldn't want to slip off that raised portion on a dry day.

[pdw]

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[pdw]

I hadn't heard of the Dundas strip, no idea how long it's been there. Those types of granular materials have been used on many farm driveways over the years. If it's lighter cinders (mentioned) ... a reasonable depth is required to bind (ground ashphalt is typically more binding at any depth of layer) ... then can't avoid being more abrupt where the edge of that material meets turf. 1/2in clear gravel might to feather in (if that's the improvement required) .. to eliminate any pronounced drop at that transition to sod. Small clear gravel mingles/meshes into sod better (stiffens the turf with very little) and helps bind into that coarser granual/higher edge to feather gradually toward the turf.

After the winter the frost also seems to have heaved larger/lighter pieces .... loosening the material a bit

[pelmet]

I hadn't heard of the Dundas strip, no idea how long it's been there. Those types of granular materials have been used on many farm driveways over the years. If it's lighter cinders (mentioned) ... a reasonable depth is required to bind (ground ashphalt is typically more binding at any depth of layer) ... then can't avoid being more abrupt where the edge of that material meets turf. 1/2in clear gravel might to feather in (if that's the improvement required) .. to eliminate any pronounced drop at that transition to sod. Small clear gravel mingles/meshes into sod better (stiffens the turf with very little) and helps bind into that coarser granual/higher edge to feather gradually toward the turf.

After the winter the frost also seems to have heaved larger/lighter pieces .... loosening the material a bit

Shows the importance of maintaining the centerline in some cases. This was a Cessna 206, unlike the more challenging C180 tailwheel aircraft in the accident I mentioned earlier. Sounds like in Dundas, the grass area was the soft stuff. Similar to the accident a few weeks ago that flipped a C172 in Smiths Falls. Had one wheel go onto the soft springtime grass.

[lownslow]

So Dundas is out for my next little fun run, and it sounds like Smiths Falls is too. What airports in southern Ontario would you guys recommend where it's safe to go off the edge without damaging a rental 172?

[Cliff Jumper]

Are you planning on having an excursion?

I suppose it's good to know one's limits

[CpnCrunch]

Smith's Falls is 75ft which is plenty wide enough. Even 30ft wide is no problem in a 172 with moderate skill level. The guy who went off the side of the runway was an instructor doing a "simulated engine failure" landing (whatever that means...) and for some reason decided to continue with a botched PFL and he actually *landed* half on the runway and half off it (he didn't drift off).

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/saf-sec-sur/2/c ... d2017O0906

[NotDirty!]

Well I've seen Mr. Lownslow fly, and "moderate" is not the word I would use to describe his skills. I'm not sure how he would handle the performance of a 172, mind you.

This whole discussion has got me thinking of a new invention. If you've ever been to a bowling alley, especially with kids, you've probably seen the bumpers they can put up so you cannot get a gutter ball. Imagine this same technology, but all along the edges of a runway. BOOM! No more runwa excursions!!!!

Pardon me, I'm off to the patent office.

[pdw]

So Dundas is out for my next little fun run, and it sounds like Smiths Falls is too. What airports in southern Ontario would you guys recommend where it's safe to go off the edge without damaging a rental 172?

Thousands of landings and takeoffs in the 172, it never happened for me (going off the side). Nothing to worry about I think, just work your rudder & opposite-aileron more if you have to ... to actively keep centre as a narrow takeoff is progressing, not to let it deviate any when it wants/starts to (slight corrections made promptly). When it's soft and you're real heavy that's probably the worst combination to have here ...

Once this heavy 206 is just a bit to one side it likely escalates the deviance so quickly that it rapidly becomes impossible to correct and stoppage was abrupt when drawn into the sharp turn once it got going. I've experienced both wheels bogging in a low spot on grass but that just takes up a lot of power no turn ... come to think of it you'd really have to remain full power and hard opposite brake/rudder to get it back up on the hard stuff (if that aforementioned scenario is initiating) then abort straight and centre. ( I'd still be surprised if on this day was calm/no xcomponent.)

[crazyaviator]

What a lot of pilots need is practice and experience! As a fresh 35 hr wonder, i always overcorrected and PIO d on landing , in fact, my worst landing was a wheelbarrow affair on my first solo,,,, from then on it was small strips, narrow and short runways, Back roads, highways, curving highways, fields, icy lakes landing in snowmobile trails with deep snow on each side,,, beach landings, engine out landings in corn fields taxiway landings ( today) 35 knot tailwind landings. 20 + knot crosswind landings . get out there and learn when the wx is less than ideal! It's about experiencing increasingly difficult scenarios with the proper attitude and flying within the edges. If it takes a qualified pilot in the right seat, so be it.

[crazyaviator]

A decent pilot does NOT need any more than 6 feet clearance on each wing tip and an extra 3 feet each side of the wheelbase! and if you cannot land within 25 feet of your intended point regardless of the conditions, go back to school !!!

[pdw]

That's it ... " back to school !!! " On that note, what is WX/component for this day for Dundas ON ? A pilot who hauls parchutists all day long gets pretty good at it after a while, so a good reason to ask what else there is.

ie What are/were component limitations for parachuting, for the onboard participants, if that's what they were doing ?

[pelmet]

ie What are/were component limitations for parachuting, for the onboard participants, if that's what they were doing ?

Usually when the winds pick up, there is not much skydiving going on which was just fine by me in the old days on a narrow strip with a C180. But sometime, the experienced guys want to open high and do a so-called "cross country" instead of landing back at the airport. 25 knot winds or so. I think that was the situation on the 180 that I flew that had its accident quite a few years ago.

[pelmet]

This guy, another skydive plane, seems to have lost control for some other reason. I wonder what the story is....

"C-FBBB, a Cessna 182J aircraft, operated by Skydive Toronto, with one pilot and 4 parachutists onboard was departing Cookstown (CCT2) when during the take off roll the aircraft became airborne, bounced several times and control was lost. The right wing contacted the ground and the aircraft slid and spun on the grass surface. The aircraft was substantially damaged and 2 passengers received minor injuries."

Lots of rain in the east lately.

[Cat Driver]

35 knot tailwind landings.

Why?