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 Post subject: Captain requirements?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Do any of the Jazz folks here know if there are minimum requirements for Captain upgrades at Jazz?

With upgrades happening in less than 2 years I can see that it would be possible for the college grads to be eligible for upgrade seniority wise with less than 2000 hours.

Is that possible at Jazz? I understand it's probably a relatively new problem to Jazz with upgrades happening quicker than ever before.



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 5:36 pm 
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Just an ATPL is required. From what I've heard a number of the college grads have been upgraded.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Hudson wrote:
Do any of the Jazz folks here know if there are minimum requirements for Captain upgrades at Jazz?

With upgrades happening in less than 2 years I can see that it would be possible for the college grads to be eligible for upgrade seniority wise with less than 2000 hours.

Is that possible at Jazz? I understand it's probably a relatively new problem to Jazz with upgrades happening quicker than ever before.


1500 hours, ATPL and your number can hold it.

There is no problem at Jazz. Lots of qualified pilots are waiting for upgrades.



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:52 pm 
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dashtrash1 wrote:
Just an ATPL is required. From what I've heard a number of the college grads have been upgraded.


Oh my...



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:48 am 
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'97 Tercel wrote:
dashtrash1 wrote:
Just an ATPL is required. From what I've heard a number of the college grads have been upgraded.


Oh my...


And you think that all of the skippers at GGN and SKY are seasoned veterans?

Times have changed. It is a sellers market. Promotion opportunities come very quickly. As long as the training and checking system standards are maintained, only qualified candidates will succeed in the upgrade.

As for overall experience levels, that is a separate debate.



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:24 pm 
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You really think 1500 hours and a fresh ATPL is fine to be a captain at Jazz? I don't think it's fair to the oblivious travelling public.

The levels of experience that are and are going to be sitting in the left seat of 705 machines is scary.



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:40 pm 
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'97 Tercel wrote:
You really think 1500 hours and a fresh ATPL is fine to be a captain at Jazz? I don't think it's fair to the oblivious travelling public.

The levels of experience that are and are going to be sitting in the left seat of 705 machines is scary.


Perhaps you should share your concerns with Transport Canada. Clearly, the Part 705 licensing rules do not meet your standards.

However, I will agree that there is no substitute for experience. Unfortunately, not a lot of 5000 hour pilots looking for new-hire seniority numbers at the Express carriers.



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:54 pm 
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That's true


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:48 pm 
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'97 Tercel wrote:
You really think 1500 hours and a fresh ATPL is fine to be a captain at Jazz?


Jazz/AC management seems to thinks so.



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Firstly, Jazz provides some of the best training around.

Secondly, this conversation has been exhausted. Experience doesn't always mean better pilots, so it's unfair to judge someone just by their ATPL. Some of the new college grads are extremely sharp and their training was tailor made for an airline environment.

I did things the "traditional" way. Instructed a few years. Flew a 703 operation for a couple of years, before I joined Jazz at nearly 3000 hours. I'm an FO at Jazz and I've flown with captains much younger and less experienced than me, but I can say that each one is completely qualified for their position. No hard feelings at all from my side.

This is the way it is oldies. Accept it.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:48 am 
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I'm more concerned about a 2000hr college grad captain getting paired with a 500hr college grad FO. Pairing new junior captains with 5000+? hour First Officer flymore isn't concerning.

Also, isn't Sully's crusade all about there being no replacement for experience?



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:08 am 
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It doesn't matter who the FO is and how experienced. If a 2000 hour college grad has worked hard and been successfully completed Jazz's qualification requirements, then he/she is competent and qualified for that position. Instead of prematurely judging someone based on their experience, give them the benefit of the doubt.

While experience definitely helps, there are several other factors that are required to make you a competent professional pilot.Looking at case studies and learning from others mistakes does help with somewhat replacing experience. Work hard, practice good communication etc.

If you read the latest news on the AC plane that almost landed on the taxiway with 4 planes on it, the pilots there had 30000 hours of experience between them.

With all due respect to Sully, I'm not sure if he has the final word on that discussion of experience.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:19 am 
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Quote:
It doesn't matter who the FO is and how experienced


Yeah it does.

Anywho, I wouldn't knowingly put my family on a Jazz plane that had a combined crew total time of 2000-2500 hrs(I guess the only way to know is how much acne they have and whether their voice cracks during the PA announcement - or I could maybe ask them how fresh their instructor rating is)

I don't care how great the sim training was and the one day Human Factors class.

This is all a Buffalo Colgan v2.0 waiting to happen.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:34 am 
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'97 Tercel wrote:
Quote:
It doesn't matter who the FO is and how experienced


Yeah it does.

Anywho, I wouldn't knowingly put my family on a Jazz plane that had a combined crew total time of 2000-2500 hrs(I guess the only way to know is how much acne they have and whether their voice cracks during the PA announcement - or I could maybe ask them how fresh their instructor rating is)

I don't care how great the sim training was and the one day Human Factors class.

This is all a Buffalo Colgan v2.0 waiting to happen.


The combined experience of the crew of 3407 was ~5600hrs...so what are you talking about?



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:51 pm 
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Low pay, fatiguing schedules (stand-ups, etc.), inexperienced crews. Am I describing Colgan, Jazz or both? The only difference is Colgan pilots knew their deal sucked. Jazz pilots think "superior" training makes them immune to inexperience and fatigue.

There's lots of 703 cockpits with more than 5600hrs combined. That's what I'd expect to be sitting in just the left seat of a 705 turboprop.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:11 pm 
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goingnowherefast wrote:
Jazz pilots think "superior" training makes them immune to inexperience and fatigue.



Have you conducted a survey of all active Jazz Pilots or are just saying what your gut tells you?



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Somewhere in the middle. There was sarcasm there too. My actual friends at Jazz are well aware of the inexperience and that some of the scheduling practices are simply not good, hence why some of them are leaving.

I'm mostly poking at people (some Avcanadians) who legitimately think 8 sim sessions and 2 week of ground school during upgrade training will make up for 4000hrs of missing experience. The only thing that fixes fatigue is healthy sleeping habits.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:03 pm 
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goingnowherefast wrote:
Somewhere in the middle. There was sarcasm there too. My actual friends at Jazz are well aware of the inexperience and that some of the scheduling practices are simply not good, hence why some of them are leaving.

I'm mostly poking at people (some Avcanadians) who legitimately think 8 sim sessions and 2 week of ground school during upgrade training will make up for 4000hrs of missing experience. The only thing that fixes fatigue is healthy sleeping habits.


Fair enough.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:48 pm 
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Let's agree to disagree on the whole "experience" magic skill set that all pilots must have.

Nearly all airlines are facing lack of crews. They have to hire pilots with low experience. What is the alternative or a solution to this low upgrade time captain problem then?

You can't shutdown half the industry and experienced pilots aren't going to show up out of nowhere.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:20 pm 
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While I agree with it being a concern and something that should be monitored (perhaps an encore stile matrix) the Jazz training certainly does make up for some of the "magical" total time in the logbook.

As an example:
A corporate jet pilot who has accumulated 5-6000 over 10-15 years, who only does anual training taught by some random FSI/CAE employee who has never touched the actual aircraft and only concern is to check boxes and get the training done getting his company paid. Only flies about 150-200 hours a year, might not have touched the aircraft or any aircraft in a month and uses little to no SOP's.

A Newly upgraded Jazz Captain, 2-3000 hours, over the last 3-4 years. Very extensive initial training, semi annual training and upgrade training. Flying 50 ish hours a month, under very strict SOP's and crew training. Countless outside resources, zero pressure environment, no owner/charter passenger pressure.

I'm sure some of you would pick the former and some the later, either way it's the way the industry is going. If the oldies that don't enjoy seeing it, #1 if you're at jazz what did you expect when you voted yes to this new contract #2 this is the only way the regionals will fill seats.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:28 pm 
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goingnowherefast wrote:

I'm mostly poking at people (some Avcanadians) who legitimately think 8 sim sessions and 2 week of ground school during upgrade training will make up for 4000hrs of missing experience. The only thing that fixes fatigue is healthy sleeping habits.


Well if that's the case then they're upgrade on a machine they're already on, therefor not only is it 8 Sims and 2 weeks GS. They most likely already completed 2 months of training, an initial PPC, probably 2 recurrents with 2 Sims each and recurrent ground school. Followed by probably at a minimum 750+ on type, then the additional 2 week GS and 8 Sims.......... Probably proficient on type and if not, you won't make it through line indoc/line check.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:58 pm 
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With 16+ total sims and 2 months of ground school, a PPL pilot could pass a captain PPC. Doesn't mean that they'll be calm, cool and coherent when shit hits the figurative fan in the real plane with 70 people in the back. A V1 cut in a sim is one thing when you know it's going to happen. It's entirely different in the real plane if the engine starts surging and making weird noises even in cruise before slowly and unexpectedly winding down and quitting.

Experience is keeping your head and thinking critically when things get weird. Training is being proficient in procedures.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:06 pm 
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goingnowherefast wrote:
With 16+ total sims and 2 months of ground school, a PPL pilot could pass a captain PPC.



Doubt it.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Yycjetdriver wrote:
Flying 50 ish hours a month, under very strict SOP's and crew training. Countless outside resources, zero pressure environment, no owner/charter passenger pressure.



Try 80+.

I agree with the rest of your post.



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:10 pm 
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Yycjetdriver wrote:
goingnowherefast wrote:

I'm mostly poking at people (some Avcanadians) who legitimately think 8 sim sessions and 2 week of ground school during upgrade training will make up for 4000hrs of missing experience. The only thing that fixes fatigue is healthy sleeping habits.


Well if that's the case then they're upgrade on a machine they're already on, therefor not only is it 8 Sims and 2 weeks GS. They most likely already completed 2 months of training, an initial PPC, probably 2 recurrents with 2 Sims each and recurrent ground school. Followed by probably at a minimum 750+ on type, then the additional 2 week GS and 8 Sims.......... Probably proficient on type and if not, you won't make it through line indoc/line check.


Goingnowhere fast's experience at Jazz is reading this forum and word of mouth. A 2000-3000 hour pilot is more than capable of being a safe Captain. Period. This is not 703/704... the training, numerous resources at your disposal within the company are unmatched compared to any 703/704 and many other 705's.



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