Cadets

hicktown_pilot · Post by **hicktown_pilot** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:03 pm

ITAC- 2003
Glider (CRGS)- 2004
Power (National Flyers Academy)-2005

How many of you glider pilots have ever flown winch or auto tow?

beaconfinal · Post by **beaconfinal** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:02 pm

I've been towed by the half ton

Matt

greenwich · Post by **greenwich** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:16 pm

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo...

Not another 'Cadet' thread!!!

G

zero · Post by **zero** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:45 pm

Yep, been towed by both. I must admit the winch was a ride I'll never forget...must be lots of stress on the airframe never mind the pilot. Also towed gliders into the air with a truck, fun until the glider tops out and the back tires start chirping!!!

The Old Fogducker · Post by **The Old Fogducker** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:56 pm

Although not with the cadet program, I recall my first winch ride at Hope BC about 1973 ... felt like I was laying on my back during the launch and I was certain the instructor was hot dogging and was going to kill us.

Fog

Jercules · Post by **Jercules** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:35 pm

felt like I was laying on my back

You sure that wasn't cadets?

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:31 pm

I remember getting winch qualed in a day... then never being allowed to fly passengers cause i didn't have enough winch tows, which I couldn't get cause I wasn't allowed to fly passengers. Good old Eastern Region, I think the motto was F the Henglish!!!

rotateandfly · Post by **rotateandfly** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:23 am

winch isnt that bad. Depends on the winch being used. Only the really powerful diesel engines will knock your socks off.

The Old Fogducker · Post by **The Old Fogducker** » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:36 pm

Jercules ... I'll admit that at a much younger period in my life there were a few of the overdeveloped young female Cadets I wouldn't have minded getting alone in a remote hotel room somewhere with a bottle of booze ... underage or not. I would have gladly "contributed to the delinquency of a minor" with one of them in particular that was built like a scale model Pamela Anderson... LOL

Alas, it remained a fantasy only ... she was about one year too young ...and the "norms of society" ... the possibilty of being punched out by her dad, receiving 50 lashes and the thought of becoming the prison pet of some guy named Big Louie covered with tattoos was always a deterent....darn it all.

Now she's likely old enough to be your mom ...LOL

Fog

Jercules · Post by **Jercules** » Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:45 am

ODF, WTF???? I think my post may have been misinterpreted. I'm not going anywhere near that one.

Redneck_pilot86 · Post by **Redneck_pilot86** » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:00 am

Hey, you are from Teeswater? What squadron were you in? I was in Hanover sqn, but ITAC 2002 and thats as far as I went.

wait...what did he say? · Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:26 pm

just how many x-cadets are out there? i myself was once known to be involved in the program... give and take and walked away with a couple free licenses. i get the feeling cadets get looked down on a little bit, i'm not sure why, well i can guess why - but lets not let jealousy get in the way of it. seriously tho, how many cadets are there around here, and what are cadets to everyone else?

Juggs · Post by **Juggs** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:04 pm

This might help.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=11382

w squared · Post by **w squared** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:36 pm

I can say from experience that in some areas ex-cadets (of any stripe, be they army, sea, or air cadets) are viewed with suspicion. Many of those that have risen to the top of their respective corps are firmly convinced that their excrement has absolutely no malodorous content...and need to be slapped around a bit (literally of figuratively) to realize that now that they have left the little pond, they no longer qualify as a big fish.

From where I stand, part of this attributable to the percentage of their instructors that have delusions of grandeur (IE a CIL officer expecting to be listened to when adressing a regular force sergeant major) who then pass those same delusions on to their charges. Maybe if they insisted that CIL officers had to have previous military experience, this phenomenon would go away...but that's not too likely to happen.

Then again, I've encountered some ex-cadets that were flat-out great. Humble, knowledgeable, and great to deal with.

FlyByWire · Post by **FlyByWire** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 8:40 am

w squared, it's pretty clear from your comments that you haven't been involved with the program for a some time. The CIL became the Cadet Instructor Cadre (CIC) in the mid-nineties. As for us CIC officers having delusions of grandeur, I will admit it happens, but on an isolated basis.

Part of the problem is reactionary. Many members of the CF treat CIC officers as 'fake' officers without understanding what we really do. We aren't soldiers, sailors or airmen, and are specifically instructed not to pass ourselves off as such on our Basic Officer Qualification course. But we do a job that is equally important as that of other membrs of the CF. The forces get 28-33% recruitment from ex cadets yearly, and that wouldn't happen without the CIC officers and civillian staff in the cadet program.

In this vein, what advantage would previous military training provide CIC offciers. Our cadets don't fire C-7's or 5-inch mounts, and they don't need to know how to clear mines or detonate explosives. Cadets are taught the basics of leadership, citizenship and elemental training subjects like theory of flight, bushcraft and the sail trade. CIC officers receive training in these subjects through the Regional Cadet Instructor Schools.

As for ex-cadets, especially those who have risen to the tops of their corps, to view them with "suspicion" is plain ridiculous. Any ex-senior cadet is a young person who will possess a sense of self-discipline, pride in themselves and their country, a good work ethic and respect for both their peers and superiors. I realize there are probably a few cases of a senoir whose ego has been swelled by his or her rank or position, but to paint a whole group of hard-working and dedicated youth with a brush of "suspicion" is just plain ignorant and does great disservice to the dedication of these kids.

End of rant.

monkeyspankmasterflex · Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:13 am

No offence to Cadets, Cub Scouts, Beavers, Girl Guides, Boys and Girls Club or any other youth organization but...

But we do a job that is equally important as that of other membrs of the CF.

I think you may be one of the isolated cases with illusions of "grandeur".

The forces get 28-33% recruitment from ex cadets yearly, and that wouldn't happen without the CIC officers and civillian staff in the cadet program.

I would venture to guess that the Canadian Minor Hockey Assiciation's percentage would be in the neighborhood of 60-70%, and the coaches aren't paid, nor is the tax payer burdened. Who pays CIC salaries? (I'm guessing it comes from DND's budget but that's just a guess.)

In any event, hope it doesn't sound like I'm picking on Cadets, I'm just bored. I'm sure the cadets do a lot of good....yada yada yada.

2low · Post by **2low** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:20 am

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 10:29 am

In the late 90s, when I was in Cadets, we had both CIC officers, and Reg Force officers that volunteered their time in our Squadron. I must say that the Reg Force Officers had a lot to contribute over the CIC officers. They were able to offer much more real world experience in the military anywhere from a leadership perspective to administration.

That's not to say the CIC officers were no good. They had all the knowledge of what the Cadet program was all about, and kept things on track. Without them, the military side could have been carried away. So basically I think it's good to have a mix of Reg Force, CIC and Civilian volunteers.

I think FlyByWire is generallizing quite a bit from thinking the only thing reg force officers have to offer is how to fire a C7 and demining. The military is much more than that.

FlyByWire · Post by **FlyByWire** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:11 am

To clarify my previous post, I am well aware that reg force members of the CF have more than firing rifles to contriubute to the cadet movement, and I appreciate any time reg force members of give to the movement. The majority of our Area and Regional staff is Reg force. I was trying to make the point that reg force military training should not be a prerequisite for cadet officers. We have Cadet Instructor schools that run courses specifically geard towards the job of a CIC officer.

As for monkeyspank, I don't have delusions of grandeur and I don't think I do the same job as a regular/reserve force officer. But in terms of our contribution to Canada, would you not agree that our youth is the country's greatest resource. I feel that helping Canada's youth to become proud and productive citizens is a job as important as any other in the military. To reiterate, my job is not more or less important than that of any other member of the miltary, it's just different.

With regards to your comment about the Canadian Minor Hockey Association, I'm not sure I understood you correctly. Are you saying that 60-70% of the members of this organization join the CF every year? Yes CIC officers are paid, but we are paid for 23 full days pre year. The average CIC officer at a corps/squadron puts in at least twice that amount of work, aside from our civillian jobs, but we don't complain because it's something we love to do.

Just to reitierate, I have the utmost respect for out regular and reserve force military. They have an incredibly hard job to do and some lay their life on the line every day to do it. I am well aware that I am not a member of the profession of comabt arms and I don't wish to represent myself as such, but I am still a member of the same military, with the same Commissioning Scroll (soon anyways) and the same consequences if I screw up (Code of Service Discipline). Although the CIC has a different job within the military, t consider it less important or less challenging is franly an insult to all of the CIC officers who put in a lot of damn hard work to give the cadets the best opportunities to excel.

mellow_pilot · Post by **mellow_pilot** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:55 am

I had a CI (that's civilian instructor to those who don't know) almost slap a CIC officer once for saying that he wasn't really an officer, just a pretend one. The CI is retired military, and a fine gentleman indeed. His anger was generated because as the last post states, the commission is the same. Techinically, though few would ever presume to do so, a CIC officer can order any lower officer or NCM (non-commissioned member, lower ranks) about all they like.

As for Cadets causing egos... damn right they do, I had a huge head coming out of there. Assloads of confidence in what I was doing too. But I would suggest that you go to any college flight program any you will find the same thing. If you're told that you're in the elite ofiten enough, you start to believe it.

Is it a bad thing? Nope. You learn very quickly in the real world to replace ego with confidence. Confidence is, IMHO, a good thing in the cockpit. After all, who wants to fly with a pilot who just isn't sure of him/herself?

. . · Post by **. .** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:00 pm

false confidence isn't exactly great either.

monkeyspankmasterflex · Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:00 pm

Allow me to retort,

To reiterate, my job is not more or less important than that of any other member of the miltary, it's just different.

IMO, your "job" is a weekend pastime. Compared with people in the reserve or reg force your "job" is much less important. I volunteer too, I coach pee-wee football. I too think I'm doing a service to my community, but never would I imply that my efforts are as important as that of a soldier, whose job I consider as important as any doctor, lawyer, teacher, police officer etc.

I agree that your "job" is different from other military jobs in that yours isn't a military job, you're a youth organization coordinator, full stop.

Are you saying that 60-70% of the members of this organization join the CF every year?

Essentially yes, I'd venture a guess that most people in the military played minor hockey growing up, a larger percentage than were in cadettes.

Like I said before, I mean no ill will towards your organization, your post seemed pompous and I was bored. Honestly, I think it's very admirable that you're helping kids. Keep it up Slugger!

Av100LL · Post by **Av100LL** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:14 pm

mellow_pilot wrote: Techinically, though few would ever presume to do so, a CIC officer can order any lower officer or NCM (non-commissioned member, lower ranks) about all they like.

Negative
as an active memebr of the real armed forces i feel this should be cleared up.
If a CIC officer presumes to lay orders upon a RegF or PRes Subordinate, be it an officer or NCM that officer and NCM is well within the lines when the tell that pogue to shove right off the dock.
It is Written into the Code of service discipline and the Q R&O's that the CIC shall have no power of command over line troops unless said troops are tasked to them for a duration.

Prime Example, CIC Maj tells pltn of fresh off the field Airborne troops to halt and salute him, proceeds to be told where to go and the most expeditious way to get there, Charges are threatened, CO of the Airborne Regiment kindly tells said Maj to Fornicate himself.

the day i listen to a Clown in combats is the day the pump my cougar full of NO2.

Springbok · Post by **Springbok** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:36 pm

To AV100LL

Damn fine post soldier and as an ex-paratrooper I found it all the more relevant.

Had a similar situation. We had just got back from a cross border excursion and three of us, 2 Sergeants and one Sgt Major were hauling ourselves along to the NonCom tea room.

A Citizen Force (non-regular) non-paratrooper Captain strolled past and when we ignored him, he stopped and called to the Sgt Major and asked by we did not salute. The Sgt Major strolled over to him, handed him a quarter and said "Listen my son, take this coin, go to a phone, call your mother and say to her, Mom today I saw a paratrooper!" The Captain took the coin and made a very humble retreat.

ozone · Post by **ozone** » Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:09 pm

As a member of the Canadian Forces I would also agree with Av100LL. I have been in the same boat. A CIC once told me he could order me around and I had to salute him lol. I laughed in his face.