Getting Swoop flying back to WJ pilots

[NewCommercialPilot]

I have to believe that many WJ pilots are waking up to the realization of the colossal mistake that they collectively made back in May 2017 when ALPA was brought on to the property.

Swoop flying, which under the WJPA was going to be offered to WJ and WJE pilots first, and at rates much closer to Mainline (parity has been suggested) and allow movement back and forth between WJ/WJE and Swoop with no seniority penalty, is now solely the purview of a separate company and at rates much lower than what the WJPA was in the process of negotiating. ALPA's only response was a misguided and likely illegal (under the CLC) employee blacklist.

For 8 months of ALPA work, WJ pilots were given a glossy survey of mostly USA carriers that was designed to inflame passions. It does not reflect the reality of what WJ pilots (or even AC pilots) will achieve in the coming CBA.

ALPA's actions have only served to poison the relationship between WJ and ALPA, at a time when they need to be sitting down and negotiating a contract. Instead, they are headed to court (Labour Board) to defend their actions. It is apparent now that the first CBA at WJ will be one that an arbitrator hands down. How likely is it that it will favour the pilots?

In 8 months, ALPA has not publicly committed to keeping the WJPA negotiated one list (the WPDL). Perhaps they have finally admitted to themselves that their own rules prevent it from being implemented. (See ALPA Executive Board policy and ALPA Constitution).

Given that the No vote in May was 38.7% (IIRC), the 40% of pilots who ignored the recent MEC directive NOT to complete the company issued non-binding 787 survey of pilot bidding prefences would seem to indicate the anti_ALPA sentiment has not abated. Indeed, with each day that passes more pilots are becoming woke.

WJ pilots can have the Swoop flying back, but it will take courage. The time is coming when you may be approached to sign a card to revoke ALPA's certification. After that, we can decide if we want WJPA #2, or an independent union.

ALPA is bankrupt of ideas. They are a bigger threat to WJ's financial position than either AC or SW or Transat (or Allegiant or Spirit). Be courageous. Think of what has gone on in the last 8 months and what hasn't gone on.

Be bold!

Oh and wish me luck, I'm one of only two Canadians in a world class wingsuit competition this weekend in California.




Sincerely,

Major WingNut

[CanadianEh]

[flyer 1492]

What altitude do you jump out at? I would suggest supplemental oxygen.

[Go Guns]

I dunno, I would be curious to see what a vote would look like now. I would wager the “no” would be less than it was in May.

Not that unity in ignoring a survey is indicative of support for our MEC, but even if it were, a whole lot has changed since then.

-a previous “no” vote

[sstaurus]

I cannot think of a better definition for the word 'Troll'... not since the days of Nicky Nick.

[DropTanks]

I have to believe that many WJ pilots are waking up to the realization of the colossal mistake that they collectively made back in May 2017 when ALPA was brought on to the property.

Swoop flying, which under the WJPA was going to be offered to WJ and WJE pilots first, and at rates much closer to Mainline (parity has been suggested) and allow movement back and forth between WJ/WJE and Swoop with no seniority penalty, is now solely the purview of a separate company and at rates much lower than what the WJPA was in the process of negotiating. ALPA's only response was a misguided and likely illegal (under the CLC) employee blacklist.

For 8 months of ALPA work, WJ pilots were given a glossy survey of mostly USA carriers that was designed to inflame passions. It does not reflect the reality of what WJ pilots (or even AC pilots) will achieve in the coming CBA.

ALPA's actions have only served to poison the relationship between WJ and ALPA, at a time when they need to be sitting down and negotiating a contract. Instead, they are headed to court (Labour Board) to defend their actions. It is apparent now that the first CBA at WJ will be one that an arbitrator hands down. How likely is it that it will favour the pilots?

In 8 months, ALPA has not publicly committed to keeping the WJPA negotiated one list (the WPDL). Perhaps they have finally admitted to themselves that their own rules prevent it from being implemented. (See ALPA Executive Board policy and ALPA Constitution).

Given that the No vote in May was 38.7% (IIRC), the 40% of pilots who ignored the recent MEC directive NOT to complete the company issued non-binding 787 survey of pilot bidding prefences would seem to indicate the anti_ALPA sentiment has not abated. Indeed, with each day that passes more pilots are becoming woke.

WJ pilots can have the Swoop flying back, but it will take courage. The time is coming when you may be approached to sign a card to revoke ALPA's certification. After that, we can decide if we want WJPA #2, or an independent union.

ALPA is bankrupt of ideas. They are a bigger threat to WJ's financial position than either AC or SW or Transat (or Allegiant or Spirit). Be courageous. Think of what has gone on in the last 8 months and what hasn't gone on.

Be bold!

Oh and wish me luck, I'm one of only two Canadians in a world class wingsuit competition this weekend in California.




Sincerely,

Major WingNut

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA............pfffft. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

I needed that. That was better than Trump "I'm the LEAST racist person ever". Priceless.

[GAF]

Hey wing nut,

It was just brought to my attention that JA has been offering a 2 year LOA for pilots wishing to go help start Swoop. I understand you have said you would love to go and help out with the launch. Well, here is your chance. I'm sure they will even start you off at the coveted "step 3". No big bad ALPA union at Swoop. Enjoy your time there.

[Mostly Harmless]

Mind! Blown!

[Bede]

NCP,

May I ask you what it would take for you to change your mind?

At one time I would have agreed with you, but slowly, as I began to see how things were done behind the scene, my mind was changed. I know more information will come out shortly, but from the credible information that I have seen, WJ is going to eat this one pretty hard. I don't want to go into more details on this public forum, but I have a feeling that once all the information comes out, there will be a lot of people hopping over to the other side of the fence. I'm hoping one of them will be you.

PS. Best of luck on the wing suit competition. Cool Arduino project too.

[JBI]

NCP,

I agree with Bede on this one. I, like him, wasn't initially a huge fan of WJ pilots going ALPA. I tried to stay pretty neutral and only give my thoughts when it came to statements made on either side that, based on my legal background, didn't sit quite right or needed further explanation. During both certification campaigns I managed to piss off people from both pro and anti union camps!

Thing is, like Bede, the things that I have seen/witnessed and heard both in person and from reputable sources makes me have grave concerns.

In both the WestJet and Encore Contract it specifically outlines:

SECTION 10 - RECOGNITION
All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL.

Seems to me, the company looking to hire Swoop pilots externally is a breach of that clause.

If the WJ or Encore pilots weren't certified, I'd argue constructive dismissal. However, since we are certified, its now up to the union's lawyers to fight. Neither are great options, truthfully. It would have been preferable for the company to simply stick by the terms of the contract. But, you can trust them if you choose to "[they're] not trying to screw you" (quoted separated by two different VPs).

Honestly, this goes well beyond ALPA/certified or not. This is arguably a breach of your contract by the company. Considering some of your previous posts, I'm surprised you aren't more upset.

[Victory]

"All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL."

This contact is presently frozen until a CBA is ratified. The story is just beginning.

So the current contract is no longer valid?

[JBI]

So the current contract is no longer valid?

The current contract for both WJ and Encore remains in full force and effect until a new Collective Bargaining Agreement is reached. The company is not permitted to unilaterally change anything in the contract once a Notice to Bargain has been filed (which is the case for both WJ and Encore).

[DropTanks]

SECTION 10 - RECOGNITION
All aircraft operated by WestJet, WestJet Encore, its subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or any entity in which WestJet has effective and/or operational control must be flown by pilots as listed in the WPDL.

Nailed it. I think the company is simply hoping ALPA is incompetent. I think they're about to be disappointed.

[mel gibson]

I think Swoop flying will stay in house.
Bit of game playing by Westjet management with respect to the other start up airlines and potential investors.
Watching from the sidelines...

[MrMerth]

Good one NCP, I'm sure that the WJPA were in the midst of rolling out wages at parity to our current rates.......

[lostaviator]

NCP,

I can't reference it anymore as the old forums are long gone, but I do recall a time YOU were calling for proper representation. cira~a few months before the vote.

I was a hesitant YES and voted based on thinking the WJPA had become tired, and turned to Trump like tactics to win votes (skull gate) but am now a solid yes after the developments of this week. The company is testing the waters to see what they can get away with. I find it interesting they have threatened legal action on ALPA when in fact, they are breaking law on a work conditions freeze.

[Tacoma]

This Thread reminds me of the WJPA forum. NCP "the Chief wingsuit nut" starting threads no one cares about. The ALPA forums getting batter JS. You should sign a card like you said you would in Oct '16 before your meeting with management.

[True North]

I'm confused. Has WestJet said they won't allow WJ pilots to apply to Swoop? Is it not ALPA that is "blacklisting" anyone who wants to fly for Swoop? If that is correct and no WJ pilots are applying to Swoop then it would seem to me the company has every right to hire off the street.

[indieadventurer]

I'm confused. Has WestJet said they won't allow WJ pilots to apply to Swoop? Is it not ALPA that is "blacklisting" anyone who wants to fly for Swoop? If that is correct and no WJ pilots are applying to Swoop then it would seem to me the company has every right to hire off the street.

[boeingguy]

I'm confused. Has WestJet said they won't allow WJ pilots to apply to Swoop? Is it not ALPA that is "blacklisting" anyone who wants to fly for Swoop? If that is correct and no WJ pilots are applying to Swoop then it would seem to me the company has every right to hire off the street.

I’m confused also. Why do some folks think it’s ok for pilots to work for up to 40% less, doing the same job, for the the same company, one that has been profitable for 49 consecutive quarters? It’s too bad it come down to banning but it’s become a dirty fight thanks to WS management. If Swoop does start up with discounted wages it will affect every one. Mainline WS pilots will get paid less down the road to remain “competitive”. This will in turn drop wages at AC,SW,AT etc down the road. Rouge already has.
This will affect everyone at some point down the road. If you can’t protect ourselves now with pilot shortage finally coming, when we will be able to?

[True North]

I'm confused. Has WestJet said they won't allow WJ pilots to apply to Swoop? Is it not ALPA that is "blacklisting" anyone who wants to fly for Swoop? If that is correct and no WJ pilots are applying to Swoop then it would seem to me the company has every right to hire off the street.

That's a brilliant response. Do tell, what did I get wrong?

[MrMerth]

No positions have been offered to WS or WEN Pilots. Unless you count submitting an application Via the website as an internal posting....

[CaptainHaddock]

Truenorth,

The positions were never offered internally. The only knowledge we got internally was an email asking ALPA to remove the ban. Then the Swoop pilot job posting went up on the Swoop site the next day.
Exactly the same time a Westjet quarterly bid is running (0 hires, 0 upgrades), it opened prior to that and is still open. So it was not a particularly classy moment for WestJet.
As for NCP’s thread opening rant, I can only say the recent moves would only be strengthening the ALPA appetite with the pilot group.
NCP is right, there probably already was a pay scale and One list decided by WestJet management while we were under WJPA-I’m sure Swoop has been in their radar far longer than ours, it was thrown at the WJPA the same time it got released to the media.
I’m sure it was based on our current operating scale at Mainline, and a %35 discount working at Swoop. The only reason we aren’t patting ourselves on our backs for negotiating our same pay scales and maybe a 15% Swoop reduction is exactly that we switched to ALPA in the nick of time.
The fact that Dispatch, OCC, IT, maintenance, VP’s, (all mobile, competitive, in demand jobs) are all being paid WestJet rates as contractors shows that there is no reason they can’t just contract out the flight crew to Swoop also.

For all the Swoop applicants, if you can just sit on your hands for a bit, you could just fly the exact same Purple Highlighted Millennials express 737 for WestJet wages-so think about it, 2-3 months wait is a difference of about 20-30 thousand a year.

[Blue42]

While it's correct that there has been no internal posting there is nothing prevent current employees from applying. It has also been posted the current employees would keep the employee number and "seniority" position for vacation. Not sure if it applies to pay position, still some unknowns.

[CaptainHaddock]

Blue42 I have not seen that information anywhere in regards to vacation. I am sure I could apply to the website with anyone else off the street. There was no attempt made to forwarn they were opening up to hire for Swoop. It is apparent now in hindsight that the company never intended to use WestJet pilots for Swoop.