DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

[Zaibatsu]

Fixed it for you.

[Loner]

Wow! That’s harsh
Please do tell

[FL007]

Well that post looking for a FO includes "maintains flight watch over all Buffalo airways aircraft", along with a number of other ridiculous job requirements.. Kind of hard to do full time in the right seat of an airplane, no?

[Loner]

Well that post looking for a FO includes "maintains flight watch over all Buffalo airways aircraft", along with a number of other ridiculous job requirements.. Kind of hard to do full time in the right seat of an airplane, no?

What did you expect with 250 hours?

[Zaibatsu]

And did the job they applied for when they did it say ‘pilot’ or ‘first officer’.

Entitlement goes both ways and this is karma paying back big time. No more delivery van and forklift PIC in Hay River. No more working up to flight attendant. My guess is there is a dearth of applicants for ‘ramp’ or ‘pilot in waiting’ so they are polishing up the carrot in the job description. Hey, you get to tell everyone you’re a pilot!!

What’s it going to be with all of those additional duties? Two or three sectors a month?

[FL007]

"Well that post looking for a FO includes "maintains flight watch over all Buffalo airways aircraft", along with a number of other ridiculous job requirements.. Kind of hard to do full time in the right seat of an airplane, no?"

There are many posters on this sight who have done this and much more. Its true that the industry as a whole is a much different now but be careful "entitlement" might come with a dose of bad karma.

Yes, of course everyone became what they are due to hard work, etc, and I didn't escape that either.. However if your job ad is titled "DC-3 FO" and description includes flight following then I feel as though there's a little bit of bait and switch.. What would their title actually be at said company?

Go ramp it out in pickle lake where your title is actually rampie and when you eventually get lucky enough to fly then that's your only duty, and those immediately related to flying.

[C-GGGQ]

Sent an email asking specifically if it was Ramp with eventual FO or FO with normal ish duties (de ice, towing etc. For your own flight)

"We have a pilot shortage up here right now so the odds of you getting checked out on the aircraft fairly quickly are very high. We have a few new pilots who have only been here a couple months that are working on being checked out on their 3rd aircrafts with us.

Very good time to join Buffalo! "

So yes a bit of bait and switch. Definitely starting on the ramp. But none of that hay river, flight attendant upgrade bs.

Better for a new 250 wonder, not great but certainly not the same as even 5 years ago

[FL007]

Sent an email asking specifically if it was Ramp with eventual FO or FO with normal ish duties (de ice, towing etc. For your own flight)

"We have a pilot shortage up here right now so the odds of you getting checked out on the aircraft fairly quickly are very high. We have a few new pilots who have only been here a couple months that are working on being checked out on their 3rd aircrafts with us.

Very good time to join Buffalo! "

So yes a bit of bait and switch. Definitely starting on the ramp. But none of that hay river, flight attendant upgrade bs.

Better for a new 250 wonder, not great but certainly not the same as even 5 years ago

Glad you sent an email to clarify.. Confirmed bait and switch, regardless of their anecdotal reply, and that "odds are very high", when you accept your job as an FO they will be sending you a job acceptance letter for you to sign, and it will not be titled DC-3 FO.

[phillyfan]

Don't like it, don't apply. Don't like the requirements, get mommy and daddy to buy you an Air Service just like they paid for your licence.

[FL007]

Don't like it, don't apply. Don't like the requirements, get mommy and daddy to buy you an Air Service just like they paid for your licence.

Or apply to straight forward job postings for ramp jobs. I'm not saying 200hr pilots shouldn't start on the ramp, I did years and years ago, and my career was not funded by mommy and daddy. This bait and switch stuff shouldn't be tolerated, anyone with two brain cells should see right through this.

[FL007]

How they titled the ad is neither here nor there; the job description is well defined, take it or leave it NEXT

Is it well defined? ".. And any other assignments" yeah super well defined.

DC3 ramp slave is your job title once signing, NEXT.

[Zaibatsu]

I..... for one.... hope most people leave it.

[TheRealMcCoy]

I have yet to sign on the dotted line for a job that didn't say "and other duties as assignment by a supervisor".

Quit your whining.

[FL007]

I have yet to sign on the dotted line for a job that didn't say "and other duties as assignment by a supervisor".

Quit your whining.

This is why the industry has this old mentality that is still alive, and fortunately will die off in the next couple of decades.

"Whining" is what you call someone who makes 6 figures in aviation tries to create transparency in a job ad, which young people perhaps will get excited about, only to find that they were bait and switched.

Have you signed on the dotted line for a job where the job title was something different than you applied for? Do you recommend your child or future children do so?

[DanWEC]

To take a different angle- I've never formally been in a hiring position in Aviation, though I have plenty of hiring experience in prior fields. If I were assessing an ex-Buffalo pilot, I'd honestly be very torn between respecting their work ethic, dedication, obvious love of classic aviation, and sense of adventure, or crumpling it because they sold themselves out and lowered the bar for the profession, since I've always been about principle. Polar opposite possible impressions.

What do you guys think?

[trey kule]

We’re pilots. We don’t do no stinkin’ thinkin’

This whole carrot on a stick thing bothers me, but as some have said, if ya don be likin it, don’t apply. They put out the bait, and I am willing to guess will have no problem getting stupids to,apply.

Its good to be sitting on the sidelines now.

[TheRealMcCoy]

^ ^ ^Exactly. It's fine to not be ok with the way the industry is, hell I could go on a lengthy rant myself. But ultimately, what's the sense in whining about it? Good for you you got a flying gig right out of flight school, some people had to work for it, such is life.

Have you signed on the dotted line for a job where the job title was something different than you applied for? Do you recommend your child or future children do so?

More times than I can count. But I was able to read between the lines and knew what I was getting myself in to.

What do you guys think?

What if that person went to Buffalo because they wanted the adventure, they wanted to learn more about the aviation industry than just the operation of the plane? They saw it as a benefit being able to learn different associated tasks and they wanted to fly a ginormous piston pounder? I would rather hire someone who busts their ass, puts their head down and gets the job done. Instead of hiring someone who thinks they're one thing and as soon something isn't to their liking the metaphorical "white hat and clipboard" come out.

[C.W.E.]

I would rather hire someone who busts their ass, puts their head down and gets the job done.

Me too.

Instead of hiring someone who thinks they're one thing and as soon something isn't to their liking the metaphorical "white hat and clipboard" come out.

You are entitled only to what you work for.

Starting a career as a FO with Buffalo is a great way to learn the flying skills that will prepare you for a future in flying.

[govida]

Hi C.W.E,

Starting a career as a FO with Buffalo is a great way to learn the flying skills that will prepare you for a future in flying.

Do you mean this as a blanket statement of any company, or Buffalo in specific? If it's the later, what makes Buffalo Air so special? What will you learn there, that you may/will not learn anywhere else that simply asks you to fulfill your pilot duties.

I'm genuinely curious. On a personal note, I've never subscribed to the idea that a pilot should have to accept a ground position in the hopes of moving up to the flight line. That being said, I don't trash people who take that route, sometimes it may seem necessary to an individual and ultimately it is not my life.

What I find interesting though, is that some people staunchly defend these "ramp to pilot" positions. Saying generalizations like; "it builds character", "makes you a better pilot", "humbles you". I haven't found that to be the case at all. I've met great pilots on both sides of the fence, so I have a hard time believing either path is better for professional or personal development. Similarly, I have met complete incompetent morons that you wonder how they're still alive that also have terrible attitudes, also from both side of the argument.

I took a quick look at your post history and you're definitely a proponent of tail draggers. I also love them, I've flown a total of 6 of them so far and an operational job on a wheeled 185 years ago. I'm sure many here have considerably more experience in tail draggers, but I've flown the classic Cub all the way to my biggest tailwheel, the Harvard. That being said, I don't think I'm a better pilot specifically because I flew/fly taildraggers. To me, it was just another type of aircraft to learn with its peculiarities.

The requirements of being a pilot have definitely changed over the years. Just because pilots used to train on conventional aircraft back in the day, doesn't make it better or worse than the current methods. If tail draggers do in fact make superior pilots, why are we not still using them en masse? Why do air forces around the world (whats typically considered the pinnacle of flying) not using them to train their ab-initio pilot?

Ultimately, I don't see any supporting evidence for the "ramp to pilot" programs making your a better all around pilot. Neither do I agree that tailwheel flying intrinsically makes you a better pilot. I guess we'd first have to define what makes a pilot, a good pilot.

[Loner]

[I guess we'd first have to define what makes a pilot, a good pilot.
[/quote]

Attitude! Mister, attitude!

[govida]

Loner,

Attitude! Mister, attitude!

A good attitude will definitely set you down the right path. That being said, do pilots that take the ramp route have better attitude than ones that don't?

[Loner]

Loner,

Attitude! Mister, attitude!

A good attitude will definitely set you down the right path. That being said, do pilots that take the ramp route have better attitude than ones that don't?

I was making reference to the quote “what makes a good pilot”
I wasn’t debating on the ramp path.
Regarding the latter, it is up to each individual to decide.
There is no perfect answer, today’s market gives them choices that most of us didn’t have.

[Cat Driver]

The requirements of being a pilot have definitely changed over the years. Just because pilots used to train on conventional aircraft back in the day, doesn't make it better or worse than the current methods

I guess I was just born at the wrong time and when I learned to fly we did not have all the modern technology in airplanes and the instructors were limited in their understanding of aerodynamics and how to properly fly aircraft, and of course there were no or very few nose wheel airplanes to properly learn aircraft handling on.

However somehow I did manage to fly a fairly large number of aircraft and did not ever wreck one or kill anyone, especially myself.

Sadly I am getting to the time in life where it would probably be difficult to re-train me so I would be able to fly all those really difficult to handle airplanes this generation fly for a living.

What is that old saying? " You can't teach an old dog new tricks" ?

[govida]

Hi Cat,

However somehow I did manage to fly a fairly large number of aircraft and did not ever wreck one or kill anyone, especially myself.

Excellent! Do you think a pilot that is trained with all the modern technology and methods can hope to have a spotless record like yours?

Or is this privilege only reserved for pilots that learned with tailwheel and toughed it out on the ramp for a few years?

[Maynard]

I have yet to sign on the dotted line for a job that didn't say "and other duties as assignment by a supervisor".

Quit your whining.

This is why the industry has this old mentality that is still alive, and fortunately will die off in the next couple of decades.

"Whining" is what you call someone who makes 6 figures in aviation tries to create transparency in a job ad, which young people perhaps will get excited about, only to find that they were bait and switched.

Have you signed on the dotted line for a job where the job title was something different than you applied for? Do you recommend your child or future children do so?

I guess no one here would make a good chief pilot as the last duty is always “...or any other duties assigned by the ops manager...”